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  1. #1821
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    And the other 2 colts she sold back a couple years ago so they never made it over here. I do remember her talking about a partner and going to court to get sole posession of RW. That was back a few years.



  2. #1822
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    Quote Originally Posted by COTHalter44 View Post
    Oh the things you have time to look for when laid up with a sprained ankle.

    Looks like it is actually Linda Mendenhall that discovered him, but I also recall JB saying on this board he was bought in an auction, so I am not sure what is correct.

    http://wbstallions.net/hof-mendenhall/outsidesales.html
    Yes, Linda discovered him at the auciton and as far as I know the partnership bought him throught the auction.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  3. #1823
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    I remember looking up the original auction sale page in 2007, which I cannot now find, but here is a copy/paste of a post from a BB translated from German to English that states Redwine was sold at the May auction in Verden for 27,000 Euros. You'd have to look up the exchange rate for that date to know the exact sum.

    07/05/2007 11:19 # 2
    Kathrin
    PREMIUM member

    "Redwine but last weekend was sold in Verden at the May auction. He went for 27,000 euro in the USA."



  4. #1824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post
    I remember looking up the original auction sale page in 2007, which I cannot now find, but here is a copy/paste of a post from a BB translated from German to English that states Redwine was sold at the May auction in Verden for 27,000 Euros. You'd have to look up the exchange rate for that date to know the exact sum.

    07/05/2007 11:19 # 2
    Kathrin
    PREMIUM member

    "Redwine but last weekend was sold in Verden at the May auction. He went for 27,000 euro in the USA."
    If you write and look at that do not forget to add the auction fee and taxes to that auction price. Plus importation costs for a stallion.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  5. #1825
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    So roughly 35,000 us dollars. Plus import fees.



  6. #1826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    I am still shocked at how many people "lose" their horse's history, and Redwine's offspring may have further reason - to not get drawn into any problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    Why would anyone do that if they bred or bought horses sired by Redwine that are free and clear? Those horses are not going to be encumbered by Jill's pproblems, if they can do their jobs.
    It has nothing to do with Jill. People want to be able to lose whatever history they choose on a horse, and usually begin by getting a new USEF number, changing the name, etc.

    Sellers want a clean slate, not the horse that "stopped with Jane Doe", the colt that flipped on the ice, was sick for a few months, or even had an abscess.

    In addition, with Redwine's babies, buyers may worry about who they really are (sire due to semen swap?), who really legally owns them, and looking down the road at selling, with this thread as added baggage whenever the name comes up.



  7. #1827
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    Right, it was Linda Mendenhall - not sure why I had remembered it as Linda W!

    But I am sure I had heard that he had been standing in Mecklenburg before he was sent to the Verden auction. Since he was 7 at the time of the auction, and we know he sired foals that were registered as Mecklenburg, the timeline makes sense. I do remember thinking it interesting that Verden took an older unlicensed Hanoverian stallion for its auction.



  8. #1828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    It has nothing to do with Jill. People want to be able to lose whatever history they choose on a horse, and usually begin by getting a new USEF number, changing the name, etc.

    Sellers want a clean slate, not the horse that "stopped with Jane Doe", the colt that flipped on the ice, was sick for a few months, or even had an abscess.

    In addition, with Redwine's babies, buyers may worry about who they really are (sire due to semen swap?), who really legally owns them, and looking down the road at selling, with this thread as added baggage whenever the name comes up.
    Agree with most of this, and think more and more buyers will hesitate on buying horses sired by JB/GFF stallions once they hear of all the issues and potential risks.



  9. #1829
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    Agree with most of this, and think more and more buyers will hesitate on buying horses sired by JB/GFF stallions once they hear of all the issues and potential risks.
    Okay - this make "0" logical sense to me ...

    If I have paperwork in hand for my Redwine 2 year old mare that I currently have for sale, it shows me as the breeder and the current owner, the paperwork and description matches the filly standing in front of me, the buyer loves her type / movement / jump / appearance / etc quite frankly they wont care who the sire / dam line is - they are buying the animal standing in front of them and not the papers.

    Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill's bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a "10" and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care

    I think so many of you are thinking as "breeders" and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things

    IMO only. Others may think differently ...



  10. #1830
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    TC - please note that I said "more and more buyers will hesitate". I did not say ALL buyers will hesitate".

    If a buyer has heard of the issues regarding JB/GFF but loves the horse anyway, she will be reassured that you have proof of identity and ownership.

    But I do agree that some buyers are not going to be terribly concerned because they will feel that "those issues" occurred between JB/GFF and the breeder or foal buyer, and it is "all in the past" and so doesn't affect them.



  11. #1831
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill's bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a "10" and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care

    I think so many of you are thinking as "breeders" and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things

    IMO only. Others may think differently ...
    Nope, the breeders would never want a history lost, it is the riders and trainers that lose them. You think no horse has ever had an abscess, lameness, refused a fence, someone fell off and got hurt? The liability issue is huge with the crazy courts in the US. They may find that the seller sold a defective horse due to a slightly swollen leg, that happened 3 years ago, and somebody found the records.

    A stop can be that the seller sold a dirty quitter without disclosing. Who knows what non-horsey jurrors will do? Better to start with a clean slate?



  12. #1832
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    Who knows what non-horsey jurrors will do? Better to start with a clean slate?
    But where is the slate "dirty" ???

    *Maybe* there are some / a few / many / a couple of offspring that have the wrong parentage and *maybe* some / all / most of them belong to Jill and are within her breeding program and *maybe* some got the wrong semen, but surely to God no one is saying that every single foal that was conceived off the GFF property has to undergo strict DNA scrutiny to determine exact parentage otherwise 3-5-7-15 years down the road it may come back to bite them in the ass in a court if it is incorrect and they had no idea - as the breeder - this was the case???

    Sorry - dont buy that. If there was collusion proven and an intentional goal to deceive a client - thats one thing, but to find at 10 years later that the youngster you sold really wasnt by Redwine even though your contract said you were getting Redwine semen - I cant see how anyone could or would hold you accountable or responsible for that



  13. #1833
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    Has any incorrect parentage been documented? Has anyone not gotten the horse they expected to get? I think the discussion needs to stay on actual documented problems, not speculation.

    Darlyn, what you are proposing will happen makes no sense to me, either, as I think the people who will actually become aware of this is pretty small. But if it does, then our Federation is even more guilty of lax record keeping than we already credit them with.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  14. #1834
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Right, it was Linda Mendenhall - not sure why I had remembered it as Linda W!

    But I am sure I had heard that he had been standing in Mecklenburg before he was sent to the Verden auction. Since he was 7 at the time of the auction, and we know he sired foals that were registered as Mecklenburg, the timeline makes sense. I do remember thinking it interesting that Verden took an older unlicensed Hanoverian stallion for its auction.
    To keep the facts right:
    He was licensed in 2002 by Mecklenburg Verband
    He did the 30 (2003) and 70 (2004) day test at Redefin with good scores
    He has in the FN Database 22 offspring registered for shows. Not too bad for Eastern Germany.
    4 of them competed in 2012 with success. 2 of those in jumping classes, two in dressage classes one including level 3 placings.
    He has a licensed son (also Hengstbuch I) in Germany.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  15. #1835
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    But where is the slate "dirty" ???

    *Maybe* there are some / a few / many / a couple of offspring that have the wrong parentage and *maybe* some / all / most of them belong to Jill and are within her breeding program and *maybe* some got the wrong semen, but surely to God no one is saying that every single foal that was conceived off the GFF property has to undergo strict DNA scrutiny to determine exact parentage otherwise 3-5-7-15 years down the road it may come back to bite them in the ass in a court if it is incorrect and they had no idea - as the breeder - this was the case???

    Sorry - dont buy that. If there was collusion proven and an intentional goal to deceive a client - thats one thing, but to find at 10 years later that the youngster you sold really wasnt by Redwine even though your contract said you were getting Redwine semen - I cant see how anyone could or would hold you accountable or responsible for that
    Losing the history has nothing to do with Redwine or Jill, or this thread. It is what I have seen MANY buyers do, when buying ANY type of horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    Has any incorrect parentage been documented? Has anyone not gotten the horse they expected to get? I think the discussion needs to stay on actual documented problems, not speculation.

    Darlyn, what you are proposing will happen makes no sense to me, either, as I think the people who will actually become aware of this is pretty small.
    Anyone who has been listening to the legal system ads etc., knows that in this country, if something happens that you don't want to take responsibility for - the horse does not work out, goes lame before a decade of ownership, etc, you don't have to take responsibility for your choice, or a decision you make.

    If something in life is not perfect, just start a lawsuit. Hungry lawyers need to pay off their education loans, and jurrors have no clue that a horse may slip and go lame. It MUST be someone else's fault.

    It also happens because the trainer selling the $100,000 horse may not want a buyer to know they bought it for $5000 from a field a year ago, and on the internet, you can search and find things.

    No one also has to know the horse is not going to make it at XYZ level jumpers. It was "imported" doncha know, and a really good prospect for that level...

    Just change the name, lose the papers, and you have a clean slate.



  16. #1836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    Losing the history has nothing to do with Redwine or Jill, or this thread. It is what I have seen MANY buyers do, when buying ANY type of horse.



    Anyone who has been listening to the legal system ads etc., knows that in this country, if something happens that you don't want to take responsibility for - the horse does not work out, goes lame before a decade of ownership, etc, you don't have to take responsibility for your choice, or a decision you make.

    If something in life is not perfect, just start a lawsuit. Hungry lawyers need to pay off their education loans, and jurrors have no clue that a horse may slip and go lame. It MUST be someone else's fault.

    It also happens because the trainer selling the $100,000 horse may not want a buyer to know they bought it for $5000 from a field a year ago, and on the internet, you can search and find things.

    No one also has to know the horse is not going to make it at XYZ level jumpers. It was "imported" doncha know, and a really good prospect for that level...

    Just change the name, lose the papers, and you have a clean slate.
    That is not what we are discussing. We are talking about people doing that with REDWINE/RS/ALOHA offspring, based only on the shit going down about their owner. THAT is what I do not see happening. All the rest that you mention has no bearing on this discussion.

    Additionally, aside from the imports regularly getting their papers "lost" and so having to create new identities, I don't think the ID changes are nearly as rampant as you indicate. Name changes happen all the time, and our Federation doesn't seem to be able to track a horse through subsequent name changes. But these are not mainly done to conceal identity, but to "personalize" a new purchase. I don't agree with it, but it is not as nefarious as you think.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  17. #1837
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    That is not what we are discussing. We are talking about people doing that with REDWINE/RS/ALOHA offspring, based only on the shit going down about their owner. THAT is what I do not see happening. All the rest that you mention has no bearing on this discussion.
    My statements were in response to

    it will be interesting to see how they fare as a group in performance.
    I said we may never know the answer to that, as so many horses lose their papers/history.



  18. #1838
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    I am sorry to agree that I have observed most hunter riders, which is RW's market, could care less, and are not knowledgable about papers or breeding. They care about whether the horse can go out and win at whatever level they are showing right now. We all know that it is usually the hunter trainers who make up a hunter to whatever level it reaches and then sells it. If one has managed to do that with a RW, and they even know it is a RW, they are probably going to brag that it is a RW because JB has created a market for RW hunters, even though apparently most are not even old enough to show off the line. Hopefully for their sakes, the people with RWs end up with horses big and powerful enough to excell at actual hunter performance.

    I think the important thing is to warn people of the seemingly atrocious horsekeeping, and apparent dicy viable semen delivery, the documented fraud judgements, and they can make their own choice as to whether they want to get involved with breeding or buying or leasing to JB.



  19. #1839
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    I think the important thing is to warn people of the seemingly atrocious horsekeeping, and apparent dicy viable semen delivery, the documented fraud judgements, and they can make their own choice as to whether they want to get involved with breeding or buying or leasing to JB.
    Exactly this without going off on totally unrelated tangents way out into left field ...

    I had someone come to see my Redwine filly today. I point blank asked if she was aware of the "issues" surrounding Jill Burnell / Redwine / Gray Fox Farm and she said "No. Should I?" and "Do any of those issues affect this filly at all?" and I said "No" and she responded:

    "Why should I care then?"

    And that is it in a proverbial nutshell and this is a long time trainer on the "A" circuit up here who has been around for many years and has some of the top horses around here

    So - by all means continue to alert MO's, potential buyers, trainers, etc about dealing with Jill directly, but to state that all offspring by her stallions will be indelibly tainted for the rest of their lives and no one will want them is a little "out there" to be honest ...



  20. #1840
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    [QUOTE=TrueColours;6560834]Okay - this make "0" logical sense to me ...

    If I have paperwork in hand for my Redwine 2 year old mare that I currently have for sale, it shows me as the breeder and the current owner, the paperwork and description matches the filly standing in front of me, the buyer loves her type / movement / jump / appearance / etc quite frankly they wont care who the sire / dam line is - they are buying the animal standing in front of them and not the papers.

    Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill's bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a "10" and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care

    I think so many of you are thinking as "breeders" and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things

    IMO only. Others may think differently ...[/


    TC...sorry ...nonsense! First off, most buyers of potential HUNTER foals? If such a thing? Are buying for Hunter Breeding! Everyone else is buying their HUNTERS from their trainers who go to Europe! Second, there are not enough progeny of any of JB's stallions to KNOW if they produce either a. A perfect 3 foot Ammie horse OR b. a future Hunter Derby horse! My "humble opinion" is that dazzle dazzle and great marketing and cheap stallions fees go a LONG way here when fact is the whole "hunter" thing is so poorly documented.
    Some of us DO look for real statistics..and judging a FOAL that "jumps a 10". ???? Maybe I misread that comment.
    I do know from years at hunter shows...decades ....that most TOP hunters ...depending on your goal...are by JUMPER bred stallions. But that is based on the pitiful data we have. And the mare makes the critical difference!
    This thread has gone on a long time! People's breeding choices or purchases are their own decisions. But as said, why support a crook when there are so many honest stallion owners out there?
    Last edited by 3Dogs; Sep. 16, 2012 at 08:45 PM.
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



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