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  1. #1621
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    While I am sure Equinedriver is working hard, I sure hope there is someone that is the backup person who is also getting the info....

    while i mean no offense to equine driver - what if s/he was a plant?

    i learned a long time ago to not put all eggs in one basket - so perhaps someone might want to volunteer to be the "second" just in case?



  2. #1622
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    Then we are no worse off then before this thread. I doubt that is the case but even if it is this thread has definitely raised awareness.



  3. #1623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Then we are no worse off then before this thread. I doubt that is the case but even if it is this thread has definitely raised awareness.
    Yup and the thread over on HGS is back up and running . Kudos to ALL of the moderators working to keep this on topic and on the radar. Let's hope it works as a public service announcement. Inasmuch as we've heard from several mare owners that stated this year (2012) Jill stated that they needed to vaccinate their mares before breeding to Redwine, our diligence in educating the public AND holding her feet to the fire assisted in making her comply to the proper protocols. So, education definitely DOES work !
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  4. #1624
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    While I am sure Equinedriver is working hard, I sure hope there is someone that is the backup person who is also getting the info....

    while i mean no offense to equine driver - what if s/he was a plant?

    i learned a long time ago to not put all eggs in one basket - so perhaps someone might want to volunteer to be the "second" just in case?
    Equine Driver a "plant"?
    Equine Driver has been a member of this forum since 2003.

    I do understand your desire for back up, it can't hurt...

    However, I think that your worries about E.D. being a "plant" are a bit much.



  5. #1625
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    After returning from a long weekend; It's nice to see this thread still open. I hope it encourages more victims to come forward.



  6. #1626
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    I too hope this thread stays open. People need to be aware and perhaps reminded.

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  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    Equine Driver a "plant"?
    Equine Driver has been a member of this forum since 2003.

    I do understand your desire for back up, it can't hurt...

    However, I think that your worries about E.D. being a "plant" are a bit much.
    I do not know ED, do you? and believe me, in RL there have been numerous times where someone has stepped forward to take the reins of something only to bungle the end result hugely - hence my aversion to putting all my eggs in one basket or relying solely on one person.

    while i doubt that ED is a plant it makes sense to have a backup person who has all the same info just in case.



  8. #1628
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    I for one am incredibly grateful for this thread.

    Even with the previous threads about Jill Burnell's business practices, I will admit I still watched her site for potential youngsters, as I am a real fan of Rotspon and Redwine is attractive. And some of her mares have good dual bloodlines for both dressage and hunters.

    I don't think any of the earlier threads even came close to divulging the true depth of the issues at Gray Fox Farm. After reading this I don't know how a person could ethically support an operation that leaves dead foals lying around under tarps, doesn't supply papers for horses purchased, and it would leave a person wondering if they would even receive the horse they purchase as well.



  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
    I for one am incredibly grateful for this thread.

    Even with the previous threads about Jill Burnell's business practices, I will admit I still watched her site for potential youngsters, as I am a real fan of Rotspon and Redwine is attractive. And some of her mares have good dual bloodlines for both dressage and hunters.

    I don't think any of the earlier threads even came close to divulging the true depth of the issues at Gray Fox Farm. After reading this I don't know how a person could ethically support an operation that leaves dead foals lying around under tarps, doesn't supply papers for horses purchased, and it would leave a person wondering if they would even receive the horse they purchase as well.
    And leaves a person wondering what kind of health care her horses receive in general. Do mares or foals ever receive vaccinations, wormings, farrier care? Is she present for foalings? Does she dip navel stumps? Does she give foal enemas if needed? Does she monitor the mare for passing of the whole placenta? Does she run IgGs on newborn foals?

    Yeah, I know lots of farm or ranch raised horses are born out in the fields without monitoring or neo natal care of any sort, but I would be totally PO'd if I was buying a foal from her and got a wormy, unthrifty-looking critter.



  10. #1630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
    I for one am incredibly grateful for this thread.

    Even with the previous threads about Jill Burnell's business practices, I will admit I still watched her site for potential youngsters, as I am a real fan of Rotspon and Redwine is attractive. And some of her mares have good dual bloodlines for both dressage and hunters.

    I don't think any of the earlier threads even came close to divulging the true depth of the issues at Gray Fox Farm. After reading this I don't know how a person could ethically support an operation that leaves dead foals lying around under tarps, doesn't supply papers for horses purchased, and it would leave a person wondering if they would even receive the horse they purchase as well.
    The obvious solution is to buy one from someone who already took all those risks for you and came out with a lovely, registered foal to show for it.



  11. #1631
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    Yes, it would be incredibly disappointing to purchase an in utero foal (which is risky enough as it is) and have it go septic and be out $10,000. Or FPT, or any of the numerous other things that can and do frequently go wrong with foals.



  12. #1632
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Yeah, I know lots of farm or ranch raised horses are born out in the fields without monitoring or neo natal care of any sort, but I would be totally PO'd if I was buying a foal from her and got a wormy, unthrifty-looking critter.
    The problem is with the misrepresentation. If a buyer purchases a foal from a ranch; they buy with full knowledge of the care, or lack of, the foal received and all is well.

    The problem is if the foals were raised as if they were ranch-breds (without this being negative or condescending!) but paying the premium, Hilltop Farm-raised price.
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  13. #1633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    The obvious solution is to buy one from someone who already took all those risks for you and came out with a lovely, registered foal to show for it.
    See...I guess that's where I disagree. If you purchase a foal from someone that bred one of their own using her stallions, you are indirectly supporting her. And, that's part of the problem . Not to mention the difficulty getting stallion breeding certificates.
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  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    See...I guess that's where I disagree. If you purchase a foal from someone that bred one of their own using her stallions, you are indirectly supporting her. And, that's part of the problem . Not to mention the difficulty getting stallion breeding certificates.
    I agree.
    To "buy from someone who already took all those risks for you" does seem to be the lesser of two evils. Why go there?

    There are many fine stallions available, and it is not necessary to support a dubious breeder. The descendants of the GFF stallions ,if they are proven worthy, should carry on , however dealing directly with the owner of an EVA positive stallion, one who has many legal, and breeding management issues, seems to me to be enabling the continuation of this debacle.
    If intelligent , careful , breeders are able to get satisfaction(once) from Gray Fox Farms , they seem to be in the minority.

    People do look to you (oh excellent breeders!) and if you keep breeding to her stallions , even though you have no intention of doing so, you ARE supporting her.
    Last edited by skydy; Sep. 11, 2012 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Spelling



  15. #1635
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    I have to ask... does she really own the stallions? I (secretly) always wondered where she got all of the money she spent on those stallions.
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  16. #1636
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    3 or 4 years ago when I first started talking to Jill, she mentioned a partner in Redwine and said there were "issues" with said partner and that she was in the process of buying out his share

    I never knew who the partner was, wasnt my business to ask or know, but my understanding was that she did (according to her) buy out his share and Redwine was hers - free and clear

    All I was told about him was that he wasnt involved in the horses at all, he was simply an investor and that was it

    No idea if she had/has partners in any of the other stallions or not



  17. #1637
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    Quote Originally Posted by EquusMagnificus View Post
    The problem is with the misrepresentation. If a buyer purchases a foal from a ranch; they buy with full knowledge of the care, or lack of, the foal received and all is well.

    The problem is if the foals were raised as if they were ranch-breds (without this being negative or condescending!) but paying the premium, Hilltop Farm-raised price.
    Exactly. For those prices, folks assume they are buying a healthy mare and/or foal that has had excellent care. And then they are shocked to receive an unthrifty looking animal in serious need of worming, good nutrition, and farrier work. As some people have mentioned on this thread and others, some of the foals have needed aggressive health care once they arrived at the buyer's farm.



  18. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    See...I guess that's where I disagree. If you purchase a foal from someone that bred one of their own using her stallions, you are indirectly supporting her. And, that's part of the problem . Not to mention the difficulty getting stallion breeding certificates.
    Well I did get a breeding certificate and my filly is registered. Interesting to think she should be blackballed if I ever decided to sell her. Especially considering I had no idea what type of person Jill was nor what type of operation she ran when I bred to her stallion. Should I have her branded with a scarlet J or something so everyone will know to stay away from her?



  19. #1639
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    Laurie, I think the difference between your filly and what they are talking about is you are not actively breeding to GFF stallions still.



  20. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Laurie, I think the difference between your filly and what they are talking about is you are not actively breeding to GFF stallions still.
    This, Laurie . This. There's a difference between those who bred unaware a few years ago and those that knowingly do business with her now. And remember....we essentially gave away a foal because we knew what was going on. My attitude was that in order to market the foal, we would essentially be endorsing what Jill was doing. Just absolutely could NOT do it. And no...we are NOT independently wealthy . We just try to do the right thing. In this particular instance, I'd like to think that we "did" manage to turn something really, really positive out of this mess.

    You were really, really fortunate, Laurie. And, I think you recognize that as well. You ended up with a really beautiful foal. But you are also considerably more knowledgeable now. Would you attempt to do it again? Do you see my point? Others may be more eloquent at expressing it, but the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind. And yeah...I "am" one of those fools .
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