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  1. #4201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo1998 View Post
    I'm baffled by all the people that seem to think a buyer would have had to make the trek out to see him in person. Thousands and thousands of horses are bought sight unseen every single year - I can't see what's irresponsible about that. As for vetting him - really? He's a known quantity, a late teens stallion with multiple approvals, numerous foals on the ground and a past performance record, I'm really not sure what the purpose of a vet check would be at this point. As for the person that thinks RS would be valued in the six figures region, I'm honestly baffled that anyone would think his value is even close to that. I love RS, I have even bred a mare to him, but he's not a six figure horse, not even close.
    Quoting this because it bears repeating.

    Just because YOU (the muckraker COTH you, that is) think it's wrong doesn't make it so.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  2. #4202
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Maybe the word idiot wasn't used, but it has certainly been implied. And it HAS been said that anyone buying a horse from her is bad for enabling her, rather than 1)getting a horse out of there or 2)just buying a horse you happen to like.

    For the holier than thous, it is a different world today, and THOUSANDS of sales a year happen solely by video and vet report. That is the way of the world, so don't go all righteous. If you sell any number of horses at all, that aren't performance age (or even some that are!), you will experience this. It doesn't make the buyer right or wrong, good or bad. It is what they do.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    9 members found this post helpful.

  3. #4203
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    Aug. 22, 2001
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    A question for lawyers:

    If a potential client comes to you asking you to take their case, how much research (beyond what the client tells you) do you do? If you know nothing or next to nothing about the client, but have some interest in the basic subject of their case, does it make a difference in your approach?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4204
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    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acertainsmile View Post
    It's only being said that at this point in time, (or at least since this thread was started) you might want to do due diligence if you were going to purchase something sight unseen. Makes sense to me.
    Really ??

    I purchase foals in utero. Kind of hard to do PPE's or due diligence.
    Deals are made cross country based on performance without the buyers every actually seeing the horse. SOP
    Fan of Sea Accounts


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #4205
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    Aug. 22, 2001
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    Thanks but I need a cliff notes version - I can't face wading through all that legalese on my phone.

    (Traveling, no computer)


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #4206
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    Oct. 21, 1999
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    Rochester, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    This thread is making me long for the civility and restraint shown by the participants in the Oldenburg Wars.
    You are not alone, loshad.
    Originally Posted by Alagirl
    We just love to shame poor people...when in reality, we are all just peasants.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #4207
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    Feb. 13, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    Really ??

    I purchase foals in utero. Kind of hard to do PPE's or due diligence.
    Deals are made cross country based on performance without the buyers every actually seeing the horse. SOP
    No kidding...I've bought horses sight unseen, and had them bought from me. I think it bears repeating (once again) so I'll break it down.

    1. Have some idea on who your dealing with (this goes both ways on a sale). It will usually help the transaction go smooth if you know you're not dealing with a (take your pick here)...Liar, deadbeat, or unscrupulous person.

    2. If there are any doubts (or heck, even 4000 posts about said person on a horse forum), you may want someone else on your team to double and triple check things like, oh I don't know....Condition of the animal if buying something presumed alive.

    If buying in utero, it may also help to have someone on your team verify that the uterus actually lives, and is in possesion of the supposed seller.

    So yes, there are signs out there that trouble may be brewing, not too hard to do a little research (especailly when you've been part of those 4000 posts.)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #4208
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    In response to the person who buys foals in utero. I would certainly ask for photos of the mare every few months, records of her inoculations and worming program, information on her feeding program and turnout.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #4209
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    14,488

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    Quote Originally Posted by candico View Post
    Just to add to the new vets vs old, I do love that the older vets can draw upon their experience, however, some just are not good at keeping up with the latest research whereas that is where the newbies are starting from. Dr. Kellon's latest newsletter seems to suggest going away from feeding grain to broodmares/babies altogether, for instance...
    and I will add a bit more to the young vs old. The above newsletter is how we get breeders starving their animals, by expecting a hard keeper to not eat grain. That "latest research" is often paid for by a company with an agenda, and wrong. Just like the "research" that says your horse will get ulcers, if not fed hay 24/7 made more than 50% of the horses in danger of laminitis from obesity.

    And on that note, the term laminitis itself is now often used for bruised feet, with thousands of dollars of treatment needed, instead of the horse will be fine in a week or two, pitch him. <turnout and constant walking being the best outcome for keeping blood flow, and return to 100% even though watching a hobbling horse may not be fun> The laminitis term use though, will scare people into being willing to pay a lot more to their vet bill that month.

    Horses need to be managed according to their individual needs.

    Horses are all different, and older vets have seen much, which is why new vets usually join practices with older vets. Good older vets do stay current - sometimes better than ones just out of school.

    That said, generally evaluating a farm and the horses, does not take latest research, or many years of experience to be competent.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #4210
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    May. 2, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    In response to the person who buys foals in utero. I would certainly ask for photos of the mare every few months, records of her inoculations and worming program, information on her feeding program and turnout.
    I knew someone would take the bait. LOL
    DMK add in utero buyers and sellers to your list please.
    Fan of Sea Accounts


    7 members found this post helpful.

  11. #4211
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    Aug. 21, 2012
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    Virginia
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    For those that buy In-utero foals: When doing so, do you not expect that the foal is coming out of a mare that is well cared for, nutritionally well-fed, UTD on everything, and full knowledge that that in-utero foal is coming from a very reputable business/farm. Here's the issue I see: Jill Burnell has painted her business to other horse professionals, to be an upstanding, well maintained program.One look at the pictures will further prove that point. She has pictures of the foals and mares running through lush pastures, frolicking and looking healthy. In reality; they were living on a few acre dirt lot with no shelter and in a giant mass of horses on one small plot of land. Now we have the Humane Scoiety/animal control involved as the horses were moved to vacant land with no shelter, small paddocks, mud, etc. Horses (including several mares) have been siezed for poor body condition. It's a known fact that she has not been caring for these horses the way they should've been looked after. It'sobvious these mares were not recieving theyre nutritional needs as preganant broodmares. Old pictures of broodmares from Gray Fox has turned up showing ribby mares also. If you buy an in-utero foal; that foal sticks with the mare until weaning. Now you've left (an obvious incompetent person) to provide adequate care for the mare during her gestation and now you're going to rely on this same person to provide adequate care the mare and newborn foal until weaning... and you still haven't laid eyes on the foal in person yet? I think this is how a lot of the buyers ended up recieving sickly foals.if I purchased an in-utero foal for 2013fromher, you can bet my blood would be boiling at this point. Knowing what we know now; I can't imagine what was lacking from the broodmare/foal standpoint in the past few years of her business operation.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  12. #4212
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    Over the last 15 years, I've bought all but 2 of my horses without traveling to see them. Primarily because they've been at the farthest points away from me and I can't always just drop everything and go fly someplace, not to mention that it eats up a large portion of my usually very tight budget. In a perfect world, horses I'm interested in would be within a half a days drive from me but that rarely happens.

    So, I rely heavily on videos, pictures, and recommendations from others to narrow down my choices and then make my decisions. I've only been "burnt" once and that was my own fault because I let my emotions for the horse over-ride what I now know were red flags and didn't insist on a PPE first. However, lesson learned, I've never repeated that mistake and been very happy with my last three purchases.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #4213
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    Feb. 13, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    I knew someone would take the bait. LOL
    DMK add in utero buyers and sellers to your list please.
    I really hope you are smarter in real life than what you type...if there is any lesson to be learned through all of this mess (and I would at least hope that there is) it would be that people need to check, and then double check when it comes to buying anything sight unseen from someone who has less than a stellar reputation.

    If this lesson fails, people like Jill Burnell will continue to come out of the woodwork, preying on those who may be niave to their practices, but most of all, failing the horses in their care who have absoloutely no voice or recourse in the situation.

    We are no longer "speculating" on Jills horse keeping practices, nor are we drinking the kool aid and thinking that these accusations about her are coming from jealous stallion owners. We are also not speculating that she has had a few of the top professionals suing for non-payment for services, etc.

    If you know where and whom you are buying horses, foals, or in utero foals from thats great, there is no need to be a little paranoid and double check. If there is a shadow of a doubt than you would be a fool (yes I said it) to fork over your cash and hope for the best.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  14. #4214

    Default Auction Updates

    Auction Items Closing This Evening, Tue Jan 22 2013:
    (Note that auction closes at time indicated or approximately 5 minutes after last bid)

    21:10:00 EST 1 Gift Certificate for Boarding and Grooming with/at Postmore Kennels
    21:25:00 EST 1 breeding to the Holsteiner stallion, Ralando II
    21:40:00 EST 1 Breeding to the Knabstrupper stallion, Pegasus vom Niehaus-hof
    21:55:00 EST 1 breeding to the Holsteiner stallion, Lotus T
    22:10:00 EST 2 doses frozen semen from the Oldenburg stallion, Ex Libris

    Tally to Date/Time of Posting

    Date Total
    Winning
    Bids
    Payments Received to Date
    (Google Checkout, PayPal or other payment commissions not deducted)
    January 10-16, 2013 $15,379.00 $9,604
    January 17, 2013 $1,650.00 $1,650
    January 18, 2013 $1,750.00 $1,150
    January 19, 2013 $1,064.50 $730
    January 20, 2013 $1,250.00 $605
    January 21, 2013 $890 $245
    TOTALS: $21,983.50 $13,984


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #4215
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    May. 17, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acertainsmile View Post
    1. Have some idea on who your dealing with (this goes both ways on a sale). It will usually help the transaction go smooth if you know you're not dealing with a (take your pick here)...Liar, deadbeat, or unscrupulous person.

    2. If there are any doubts (or heck, even 4000 posts about said person on a horse forum), you may want someone else on your team to double and triple check things like, oh I don't know....Condition of the animal if buying something presumed alive.
    It's so awesome that you know that all current transactions fail this test and that everyone who is buying a horse from JB must be an idiot because clearly they are - every last one of them - rubes who never learned to enter into a transaction with a known entity in a way that can protect their interests. (Or maybe I have it wrong and you are just implying that ONE transaction in particular falls into this category?) I'm sure they all wish they had your Sooper Mad Deductive Skilz!!11!!
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #4216
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    Feb. 13, 2007
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    Wowza DMK, are you okay? Where did I say ALL current transactions fail? Maybe those who had okey dokey transactions did do their homework, crossed their t's and dotted their i's. Or maybe Jill decided to have a moment of clarity and do the right thing...I have no idea. No crystal ball here, just some common sense when dealing with someone like Jill Burnell.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #4217
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    I do think that perhaps the horse world needs to borrow some practices from other business worlds.... Perhaps its time that trainers take advances and that purchasers retain a certain percentage of payment until said animal is at their doorstep?

    these are both practices done in various other fields of business with high rates of possibility of fraud.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #4218
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acertainsmile View Post
    I really hope you are smarter in real life than what you type...if there is any lesson to be learned through all of this mess (and I would at least hope that there is) it would be that people need to check, and then double check when it comes to buying anything sight unseen from someone who has less than a stellar reputation.

    If this lesson fails, people like Jill Burnell will continue to come out of the woodwork, preying on those who may be niave to their practices, but most of all, failing the horses in their care who have absoloutely no voice or recourse in the situation.

    We are no longer "speculating" on Jills horse keeping practices, nor are we drinking the kool aid and thinking that these accusations about her are coming from jealous stallion owners. We are also not speculating that she has had a few of the top professionals suing for non-payment for services, etc.

    If you know where and whom you are buying horses, foals, or in utero foals from thats great, there is no need to be a little paranoid and double check. If there is a shadow of a doubt than you would be a fool (yes I said it) to fork over your cash and hope for the best.
    I think if you take a poll of those who bought inuteros or foals from JB you might find that the majority were very happy with their purchases.

    That statement does not condone JB's horsekeeping practices, but I think calling people stupid for the way they buy their horses is once again changing the direction of the thread. I'm sure there are plenty of sales where the purchaser has seen a horse in person and had problems afterwards.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #4219
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    Aug. 27, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    I do think that perhaps the horse world needs to borrow some practices from other business worlds.... Perhaps its time that trainers take advances and that purchasers retain a certain percentage of payment until said animal is at their doorstep?

    these are both practices done in various other fields of business with high rates of possibility of fraud.
    I do wish more people would do this. I have done it using an escrow account. I highly recommend it.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #4220
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    I actually said you would be stupid at this point in time without taking proper measures, let's face it, it's no longer a secret what her business practices are.

    Not really into taking polls, but I've seen enough on this thread alone to know that many recieved foals in poor health, or recieved no foal, or there was actually no mare in foal (at least in JB's possesion). Unless of course this is all make believe....


    2 members found this post helpful.

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