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  1. #3861
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    Quote Originally Posted by sid View Post
    I did expose her but I could not say who she was by name. When I posted the pics (would make you throw up) I had about 400 PMs right away. Even though her name was not exposed by name, most breeders knew who she was. The COTH dialogue and pics basically ran her out of the biz. Hope that is what happens here, no matter how all the legal things work out.

    The mare in my case did of course the same thing. The life was literally sucked out of her body to feed her foal. By the time we found them she was almost dead and he was a stunted little thing. I'm happy to say he is no 8 years old and came back to full size, but it was a very long haul.

    I love these mares. The give so much of themselves, sometimes to their own end to save their babies despite the ill care.

    Her name was Jane Ervin. One of the top breeeders and IHF breeding handlers in the country at that time. Big name means nothing to me now. Water under the bridge. Thanks to being brave and posting on COTH, and all the support, never heard anything about her since. She posted on COTH often as Mshunter and had quite a following.
    Agree with Sid on that issue. My BNT and I were the ones who went to look at a foal this person had on the farm in NJ. He was so horrified by 1. No shelter in summer w/ horses standing in a sand ring 2. No water 3. Not a stitch of hay or grain for the broodies. When we left he immediately got on the phone and started contacted his buds in the business to find out who had horses there. I contacted the Humane society people out there and the police, who were well aware of the farm, for whatever reason. In that case, we went with the owner and a police standy by and took and owner's mare and foal (we had the paperwork and the human society people investigated. One mare and foal spent time in a clinic recovering after her owner siezed her. I had posted about this when it happened under my original user name on the board. It was a similar situation of starving mares. Her place was not a crap hole, her house was quite nice. I actually believe her daughter still comes on to COTH and defends her mom. But she was riding ponies at the time and was young.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #3862
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    Oct. 8, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    I am just amazed (horrified, actually) that so many are STILL believing what JB is saying, if even through her attorney.
    I haven't seen anybody at all on this thread believing anything from JB.

    I have seen questions and people wanting some facts/documentation. Because until that photo from RMHP, all we had to go on was a couple press releases and information from people running the fundraising efforts. And it's natural for people to want confirmation that money is going to the right place or that everything is being handled properly (especially after we've seen so many crazy things happen here @ Coth). That is not the same thing as "believing" or "supporting" Jill Burnell.

    What is interesting, is that the folks who were asking questions about getting some confirmation of the horses' condition have been accused of conjecture and whatever else, even though EVERYONE has been doing that this whole thread. Seems like anyone even tangentially involved in JB's business or the horses has had the ugly glow of conjecture pointed at them. Just a question of who's next.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3863
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    I've have had only one interaction with Genevieve, on a thread about a pregnant mare. I asked "What did the vet say?" because I had a mare in a similar situation and IIRC her response was way over the top, extremely defensive. And also IIRC she had supporters justifying her very defensive response. Funny, I had forgotten about it till now.
    probably because Glenhill is a class act who does a lot for many.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  4. #3864
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    I think it may be unfortunate that the the lawyer is changing this to a class action suit including others who have had their animals seized. This coud indicate she sees a way to make money out of it from other owners, instead of just trying to get money out of JB, which is apparently impossible.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #3865
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    Jan. 19, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    I've have had only one interaction with Genevieve, on a thread about a pregnant mare. I asked "What did the vet say?" because I had a mare in a similar situation and IIRC her response was way over the top, extremely defensive. And also IIRC she had supporters justifying her very defensive response. Funny, I had forgotten about it till now.
    If your idea of "way over the top, extremely defensive" is:

    Trust me carolprudm - if she ever shows signs that she is in trouble or my vet gets concerned Suerte will be up at UC Davis..
    (from the Suerte thread) ... you seriously need to recalibrate your 'people being mean on the internet' meter. Are you that desperate for a villain besides JB?
    Unfortunately China is very hard to change ... Unless an enormous whip beats her on the back, it will never change. Such a whip is bound to come, I think. Lu Xun


    6 members found this post helpful.

  6. #3866
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    Feb. 15, 2004
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    The vet in this case is a witness, right? so, if the observations do not go in the direction, JB and her lawyer were hoping for, could she be declared a "hostile" vet? Just curious... because from what we heard/read, the conditions are bad for all the horses. A vet experienced in abuse, neglect cases may have seen worse, BUT still could not say everything is perfect!

    Also, reading the Suerte thread again (oh the memories!!), YOU even said you did not consider Gen's reply snappy or crabby... what gives? almost 6 years later??? geez...

    back to our regular programming!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #3867
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated View Post
    I haven't seen anybody at all on this thread believing anything from JB.
    So all those lynchmob posts against Dr. Ellis last night weren't people taking Jill and/or Maggie Weems at their word when they stated Dr. Ellis is their vet and she feels all the horses are in great shape with no signs of abuse or neglect? Interesting.

    (Though one DID say "IF it turns out she is their vet and passed this mare as healthy."* that individual showed plenty of doubt in their thought process and rightly opted to wait for firm facts before saying she'd take action with the licensing board. That wasn't a post throwing direct blame; rather it was emtional disbelief)

    *paraphrased
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique



  8. #3868
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    Since the comment about believing JB was directed at the folks wanting more information on exactly what shape the horses were in and wanting some confirmation from MHS, I believe it applies.

    But even the people ready to lynch the vet don't actually seem to defend JB anywhere, and all seem to be roundly denouncing the condition of the horse and care JB gave. A whole lot of the posts have taken grains, little nuggets and snippets of JB's "side" of the story, to extend attacks and suspicion on other people. But I haven't seen anyone on here saying "You will see! JB will be cleared and this is all a vendetta!" or anything of that sort. Have you?
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.



  9. #3869
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    I've have had only one interaction with Genevieve, on a thread about a pregnant mare. I asked "What did the vet say?" because I had a mare in a similar situation and IIRC her response was way over the top, extremely defensive. And also IIRC she had supporters justifying her very defensive response. Funny, I had forgotten about it till now.
    Foal watch is hard, even harder when you have it on the net for all the armchair quarterbacks of the world to see, it is easy to get snappy after a while. Gen is a class act and has helped many people get things made right by Jill Burnell. She seemed to be the only one that could talk any sense into her for quite a while, not sure if that has changed now or not.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #3870
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    Feb. 23, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    If your idea of "way over the top, extremely defensive" is:



    (from the Suerte thread) ... you seriously need to recalibrate your 'people being mean on the internet' meter. Are you that desperate for a villain besides JB?
    LOL, nice try. I had no idea who JB was before I was asked to donate to the auction. I don't frequent this forum, thanks for the reminder
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  11. #3871
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    Jan. 19, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    LOL, nice try. I had no idea who JB was before I was asked to donate to the auction. I don't frequent this forum, thanks for the reminder
    LOL, perhaps you ought to take the thirty seconds to google the thread & refresh your memory before you cast aspersions on someone's character.
    Unfortunately China is very hard to change ... Unless an enormous whip beats her on the back, it will never change. Such a whip is bound to come, I think. Lu Xun


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #3872
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    Mar. 11, 2005
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    Caffeinated, I never said they were defending Jill. I said I'm shocked at those still BELIEVING her lies (in this case, that Dr. Ellis is their and said vet says none of the horses were neglected, abused, or malnourished).

    There's a BIG difference between supporting/defending and believing a web of lies. I have not found one person actually defending JB, but there were a large number ready to take the vet to task just because she was named by the JB/Weems team.
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #3873
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    May. 17, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    So all those lynchmob posts against Dr. Ellis last night weren't people taking Jill and/or Maggie Weems at their word when they stated Dr. Ellis is their vet and she feels all the horses are in great shape with no signs of abuse or neglect? Interesting.

    (Though one DID say "IF it turns out she is their vet and passed this mare as healthy."* that individual showed plenty of doubt in their thought process and rightly opted to wait for firm facts before saying she'd take action with the licensing board. That wasn't a post throwing direct blame; rather it was emtional disbelief)

    *paraphrased
    Actually, if even ONE other horse currently on JB's property is in as bad of condition as Devil's Sis, the most reprehensible party in this whole mess (after JB) would be the MCHS, which has the legal authority and legal obligation to seize such an animal.

    And yet they have not.

    And it's not like they have stood up in front of a judge and lost either. So I wouldn't think they are holding back on necessary seizures due to an over abundance of regulatory caution.

    So do you think they are not doing their duties? Or do you think there is a possibility that the other animals are not in as poor condition at this time? Because I don't see a lot of other choices.

    What I think - based on the actions of MHS to date and what I know about horses and where JB's income level has been headed is that the easier keepers still do not meet the legal requirements of neglect. If I was a betting person, I would bet that the other two horses seized are either TBs or older mares. In short this is a situation that has been addressed BEFORE it is completely out of hand. Those horses that are older, infirm, not easier keepers are the canaries in the coal mine of neglect. There is nothing new about that. In the case of abuse/neglect that is much further down the road, they are generally the bones found on the property.

    So I think MHS is probably doing their job to the best of their ability, and part of that job includes keeping an eye on JB to either take care of the horses she has or reduce the herd to a level she can afford (0?) and if she fails that, then they can take action. I also think that the attorney is doing her job, what with people having the right to due process and representation. And I'm betting that when the vet retained by the attorney inspected the remaining horses, they were probably all still in a condition that does not rise to the level of legal neglect.

    I also think the horses live in atrocious conditions, but unless there is a law specifically governing fencing and shelter, that is a tough case to make for seizure, especially when the owner has an attorney.

    I also think that it takes money to feed even easy keepers, and I suspect money is not something JB has much of, so those remaining horses are not going to stay/improve in their current condition for very long. And that is on top of the issue of being able to legally stay on the property (although that could take months or years to play out).

    I don't think any of this is rocket science, but I am in awe of the idiocy of people trashing the attorney, the vet, buyers of the horses ... and then when anyone raises even a modicum of common sense, the howls of outrage commence because such a person must be siding with JB. This thread might function equally well as an IQ test.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  14. #3874

    Default Auction Updates

    Auction Items Closing This Evening, Thur Jan 17 2013:
    (Note that auction closes at time indicated or approximately 5 minutes after last bid)

    21:10:00 EST One website design or one website redesign by Daventry Web Productions
    21:25:00 EST 1 Breeding to the Oldenburg stallion, Gatsby
    21:40:00 EST 1 Breeding to Welsh Section B Stallion, Daventry’s Power Play
    21:55:00 EST Winner's choice of a videography or photography session, both with all usage rights
    22:10:00 EST 1 breeding to the Welsh stallion, *Telynau Bronze Statue

    Items We Have Added Today
    1 breeding to the Hanoverian stallion, Schwarzenegger
    1 (LFG) Breeding to Lifetime Approved Danish Warmblood Stallion, Cobra One
    Acrylic 10" x 8" Horse Head Painting
    Acrylic 12" x 12" Unicorn Foal Painting
    Acrylic 16" x 20" Horse Painting

    Tally to Date/Time of Posting

    Date Total
    Winning
    Bids
    Payments Received to Date
    (Google Checkout, PayPal or other payment commissions not deducted)
    January 10, 2013 $2,119.00 $1,570
    January 11, 2013 $2,110.00 $910
    January 12, 2013 $1,805.00 $745
    January 13, 2013 $1,755.00 $990
    January 14, 2013 $2,980.00 $1,730
    January 15, 2013 $1,290.00 $540
    January 16, 2013 $3,515.00 $400
    TOTALS: $15,574.00 $6,785


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #3875
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    Mar. 11, 2005
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    Are my posts really that hard to comprehend?

    I am NOT defending Jill. I am NOT accusing anyone here of defending Jill. I AM saying that people are seeing or hearing her and her attorney name others as defending them (i.e. Dr. Cheryl Ellis) and immediately attacking those others. Just because Maggie Weems tells the press Dr. Cheryl Ellis is the Burnell's veterinarian and she never saw an issue with the condition, treatment, or housing of the horses doesn't make it so.

    THAT is my issue! Quit attacking those who are being named without definitive proof the named individuals are actually doing what their being said to be doing!
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #3876
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2001
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    Lima, OH
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    485

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    Are my posts really that hard to comprehend?

    I am NOT defending Jill. I am NOT accusing anyone here of defending Jill. I AM saying that people are seeing or hearing her and her attorney name others as defending them (i.e. Dr. Cheryl Ellis) and immediately attacking those others. Just because Maggie Weems tells the press Dr. Cheryl Ellis is the Burnell's veterinarian and she never saw an issue with the condition, treatment, or housing of the horses doesn't make it so.

    THAT is my issue! Quit attacking those who are being named without definitive proof the named individuals are actually doing what their being said to be doing!
    this is from Rate My Horse Pro:
    "Court records state that veterinarian Cheryl Ellis, DVM submitted a declaration on behalf of Burnell regarding her horses' care."

    Do we know what's in that declaration? no, but I can't imagine it would have been submitted on Burnell's behalf had it been a disparaging report.



  17. #3877
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    Are my posts really that hard to comprehend?

    I am NOT defending Jill. I am NOT accusing anyone here of defending Jill. I AM saying that people are seeing or hearing her and her attorney name others as defending them (i.e. Dr. Cheryl Ellis) and immediately attacking those others. Just because Maggie Weems tells the press Dr. Cheryl Ellis is the Burnell's veterinarian and she never saw an issue with the condition, treatment, or housing of the horses doesn't make it so.

    THAT is my issue! Quit attacking those who are being named without definitive proof the named individuals are actually doing what their being said to be doing!
    My point is more specific. Just because a vet was hired by an attorney to evaluate horses that the MCHS chose not to seize for whatever reasons, does not make that vet wrong, unethical, incompetent or involved in a giant conspiracy (a time honored crazy coth breeder favorite). And if that vet allegedly represents in a court document that said horses are in adequate condition and you (a generic "you") do not like that answer, it does not make that vet wrong or again, involved in a giant conspiracy. More importantly, you (again in the generic sense) look reprehensible for attacking the professional conduct of that individual on a public bulletin board.

    Ditto for the attorney, any buyers involved and anyone just teasing out known facts from a garbage dump of speculation.

    So yes, you made your point clear, but it wasn't my point.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  18. #3878
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    Aug. 1, 2005
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    I have been talking this morning with Devil Sis's breeder. She is sickened and heartbroken by this and is contacting the MHS and wants to get her back where she can live out her days being pampered. I love good thoroughbred breeders!
    Cloverfox Stables


    17 members found this post helpful.

  19. #3879
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    Dec. 12, 2007
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    Stop trying to be fact based, DMK. If you have a point to make, make it speculative.

    Pretty standard practice in cruelty cases for the accused* to be required to have a veterinarian of their choosing (ie, independent of the legal authority's veterinarian) inspect animals and facilities, and provide advice to the accused. If a lawyer asks a vet "Are the horses in immediate danger?" and the horses that are present on the farm are not, in fact, in immediate danger of starving, have water, do not have injuries in need of veterinary attention, then guess what? The vet has to say no, they're not in immediate danger. The vet might go on to say that the facilities need X, the horses need Y, but the standard for immediate seizure in a new case usually means something that presents a threat to health within 24 - 48 hours.

    Stop bashing and threatening board reports for some poor vet who was just doing what some vet had to do.


    *accused = legal term, not a judgement that I think Burnell is innocent. Critical thinking involves being able to consider multiple possibilities, some of which might be contradictory.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  20. #3880
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    DL- I'll stop being fact based when you give up that fancy schmancy "critical thinking"!

    How far down can we drag this thread with our wild ways?
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    5 members found this post helpful.

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