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  1. #2601
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    Apr. 28, 2009
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    Personally, I would much rather allow a judge to hear all the matters (what a headache S/HE will have!) and rule that Jill must hand over ownership to the Marin County Humane Society so that then these horses can be adopted to homes that will care for them for the rest of their lives. There is no point MCHS confiscating horses and spending the gobs of money it would take to do this, unless they have the LEGAL authority to do so. To do that, it's my understanding they need a judge to sign off on an order! The only way to ensure things are done right and permanently is to let the legal process already started by the MCHS do its thing. Once a judge signs off and applies a court order, Jill Burnell and all her ensigns related to Gray Fox Farm can do nothing to block it.

    Let's just sit tight and wait for the first hearing to finish. From there, we will know whether the deck is stacked in MCHS' favor or not. This hearing coming up is step 1 of many, many steps to take. It will be a long and complicated process. So, hang onto your hats...
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2602
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2003
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    Annapolis, MD
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    842

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    Quote Originally Posted by genevieveg17 View Post
    I had Grande Divina. I recently sold her to Rising Phoenix. There was nothing sneaky about it. I had been in contact with Joan Watt from the first day I had Divina. I sent her photos and updates. Nothing unethical at all with Grande Divina.
    Divina's sale was legit. Divina was my daughter's only horse. She birthed her and they grew up together...selling her was not easy for me. It was gut wrenching...as things unfolded.
    Gen was so kind to Divina and to Grand Affair both. I thank you for being bigger than the challenges.

    Joan Watt
    Last edited by TWF; Jan. 3, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
    Tradition of "Grande" Sporthorse Champions
    Couture Du Jour - Devon Winner '10 & '12 & PHSA Champ '10
    Grande Desire & Impression '08-10 PHSA Champs
    Grande Sovereign -CH & HB Sire


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #2603
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2003
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
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    842

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    Quote Originally Posted by horsenut93136 View Post
    This. and in #2468 someone who seems to have owned the mare says that she retained the mares papers but was paid and gave a bill of sale. Very confusing that they would let the mare stay somewhere they thought was so horrible. Now the mare lands in a nice home and now it's an issue. I do not agree with Daventry. I hope the horses land in good homes and I don't care if that means someone who knows Jill. I would rather see horses go to individuals vs a rescue type with the humane society. Yes its a problem if Jill retains ownership but hopefully that will not be a problem. So if the horses are in good homes that is the point. Kudos to the stallion owners for donating to the auction and to those who have breedings they can not use. I'm sure you have made a lot of people very happy

    Reading comprehension 101

    NOT PAID. NO BILL OF SALE.


    Seriously Horsenut Greenie...what a bunch of hoooooey!!

    Don't you think the REAL OWNER should get her mare back???
    Jill Johnson MADE Grande Affair

    • Loved and cared for her since she was 3 months old.
    • Has been trying to re-gain her mare since before this situation became public.

    Who are you to suggest to Jill Johnson that HER leased mare should stay in this "nice place" when the "hide em and buy em sale" was SO BOGUS.
    . . . . Oh and let's suspend reality JUST FOR YOU on the WHOLE subject of the scam papers and JB abusing this amazing mare as a $$$ Baby Machine ?? How perverse.

    Grand Affair needs to land back in PA ...where she can "Rest on her Well Earned Laurels " .... with the family who has owned and always loved her.
    Last edited by TWF; Jan. 3, 2013 at 12:25 AM. Reason: troll watch
    Tradition of "Grande" Sporthorse Champions
    Couture Du Jour - Devon Winner '10 & '12 & PHSA Champ '10
    Grande Desire & Impression '08-10 PHSA Champs
    Grande Sovereign -CH & HB Sire


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #2604
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2013
    Posts
    146

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    First of all - I think trying to sell a broodmare that is not breeding sound is unethical on many levels, however horses are sold without papers all the time.

    I have papers sitting in my safety deposit box that I chose to retain for personal reasons, but the horse was sold without them. I do not claim to own the horse. I received a check and signed a bill of sale. Possession of a registration certificate doesn't prove anything.

    For the mare's sake however, I hope she is allowed her well earned retirement.
    TWF This is what I am referring to, I'm sorry you find it necessary to attack someone who is trying to clarify a confusing situation. I don't know you and don't know if the mare should be east or not. Just seems odd that after 4? years nothing was done until now. And again if the mare has a good home (I think the pictures I have seen of her show that) why bash now? Anyway I guess that is for a court to decide. But no need to scream that no one can read, seems the problem lies in presentation.
    Last edited by horsenut93136; Jan. 3, 2013 at 03:43 AM. Reason: troll watching too



  5. #2605
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
    Posts
    3,553

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    Quote Originally Posted by horsenut93136 View Post
    TWF This is what I am referring to, I'm sorry you find it necessary to attack someone who is trying to clarify a confusing situation. I don't know you and don't know if the mare should be east or not. Just seems odd that after 4? years nothing was done until now. And again if the mare has a good home (I think the pictures I have seen of her show that) why bash now? Anyway I guess that is for a court to decide. But no need to scream that no one can read, seems the problem lies in presentation.
    How could you call a home that clearly knows the mare is not rightfully owned a "GOOD" home?

    Same women has pictures of the mare and foal standing in feces looking terrible and is gloating about the foal in them good home ?

    I'm sorry but I don't care who or what horse or what I paid for it the second I became aware of this situation I'd have been on the phone with Jill and Joan and trying to do what I could to either get their horse back or to make things right for both parties. NOT continuing to support JB by hiding mares. She has already posted to facebook looking for stallions ...for a mare that she knows should not be bred and never should have been bred. If I were her I'd be horrified , the mare would be on a trailer back to PA and I'd have a hell of a Lawyer and have the cops beating on JB's trailer door for selling stolen property.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #2606
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2003
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    Annapolis, MD
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsenut93136 View Post
    TWF This is what I am referring to, I'm sorry you find it necessary to attack someone who is trying to clarify a confusing situation. I don't know you and don't know if the mare should be east or not. Just seems odd that after 4? years nothing was done until now. And again if the mare has a good home (I think the pictures I have seen of her show that) why bash now? Anyway I guess that is for a court to decide. But no need to scream that no one can read, seems the problem lies in presentation.
    Suspended Reality - Troll bait taken - Hook line and sinker -


    You'll need to read back a few years for that answer. . . At least my name is posted here...who are you Greenie?

    FYI - Post #2469 was the post by the owner.
    Last edited by TWF; Jan. 3, 2013 at 11:23 AM. Reason: dsylexia


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #2607
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    Dec. 2, 2003
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    Annapolis, MD
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    The sale of Grande Divina was legit. I am grateful to you Gen & sorry that anyone thought the sale of Divina was a problem. You were a saint for going above and beyond for both Grande Divina and Grand Affair.
    Last edited by TWF; Jan. 3, 2013 at 08:20 PM.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #2608
    Join Date
    Jul. 18, 2001
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    Here and there
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    5,485

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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    I do understand your distress about the fate of your mare, but I am confused about a point. If you wanted Divina to go to a forever home, why was she in a public auction? Even selling privately, it is impossible to expect buyers to keep horses forever when they can live 30 plus years. Life changes for people. There are deaths, injuries, illnesses, divorces, drought and other natural disasters, financial pitfalls, etc. that can adversely affect the future of horses. If you want a horse to have a guaranteed forever home, you need to plan to keep it forever yourself.

    I think it is amazing that Grand Affair had so much success on the line and that she has produced several offspring to follow in her path, but it doesn't make her any more important than any of the other horses in that situation other than to the ones that loved her. There are others in the situation that should not have ever been bred due to debilitating injuries that keep them from being sound. There was a reason why Jill got many of these mares for little to no money. I do hope Jill Johnson and the others who have a beloved mare in this situation are able to see them safely back to where they belong.
    This to me is something everyone should remember... All of the mares are nice mares that deserve better than they've gotten. And this is the very reason that come hell or high water my Mumsy will always be owned by me. If it came down to public auction or putting her down to guarantee her not ending up out of my control, guess which I'd choose. And if anything ever happens that she shouldn't be bred as it would put her life at risk, she would be spayed.

    I'm hoping the mares get back to the previous owners that want them back, but harbor no bad thoughts toward those owners that don't want them or can't take them back. They did all go to Jill for a reason, hopefully they end up in better circumstances soon.
    Not all who wander are lost.

    Ralando II


    7 members found this post helpful.

  9. #2609
    Join Date
    Jul. 18, 2001
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    Here and there
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    And I'd like to give kudos to the people that are busting their asses to make this nightmare come to an end for the horses and people affected. ( Those in the public eye, and those that prefer to keep their efforts and contributions out of the public eye... Remember that not everyone wants their involvement out there for scrutiny or praise.)
    Not all who wander are lost.

    Ralando II


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #2610
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    146

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    First of all - I think trying to sell a broodmare that is not breeding sound is unethical on many levels, however horses are sold without papers all the time.

    I have papers sitting in my safety deposit box that I chose to retain for personal reasons, but the horse was sold without them. I do not claim to own the horse. I received a check and signed a bill of sale. Possession of a registration certificate doesn't prove anything.

    For the mare's sake however, I hope she is allowed her well earned retirement.
    Sorry TWF but the post # you referred to can't be found. This post by JWB #2468 is what I was referring to. If she was not the mare's owner then I guess it has no bearing. I understand you passion for you mare, but bullying will not change the fact that I was not the only one wondering.

    Anyway back to the core thread and hoping ALL the mares and stallions land safely and again kudos to those who stepped up offering services.
    Last edited by horsenut93136; Jan. 3, 2013 at 11:11 AM. Reason: didn't want to insult twf


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #2611
    Join Date
    Feb. 15, 2004
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    Ontario
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    7,617

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinsella View Post
    And I'd like to give kudos to the people that are busting their asses to make this nightmare come to an end for the horses and people affected. ( Those in the public eye, and those that prefer to keep their efforts and contributions out of the public eye... Remember that not everyone wants their involvement out there for scrutiny or praise.)
    Thank you for mentioning that. Some posters obviously are looking for praise and may be quick to blame the ones that work diligently behind the scenes. Some assume too much and remember when the truth comes out, the ones assuming will... well you know the saying!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #2612
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2003
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
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    842

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunters Peak View Post
    In this world one has to actually pay for things(property, animals, etc.) to own them outright. The mare 100% had a broad ligament bleed. A sizeable one. I can't comment any further because of on going legal action. However, this is a warning. Whomever claims to own this mare, better be able to produce her original papers for the police. I know only ONE person who can do that.
    This is post #2496 by of the owner of Grand Affair - Jill Johnson
    Last edited by TWF; Jan. 3, 2013 at 08:48 PM.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #2613
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    Nov. 5, 2000
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    9,268

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    Originally Posted by Hunters Peak
    In this world one has to actually pay for things(property, animals, etc.) to own them outright. The mare 100% had a broad ligament bleed. A sizeable one. I can't comment any further because of on going legal action. However, this is a warning. Whomever claims to own this mare, better be able to produce her original papers for the police. I know only ONE person who can do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by TWF View Post
    This is post #2496 by of the owner of Grand Affair
    I am still a bit unclear on how the mare ended up with JB/GFF, but wanted to point out the police can't do much without a court order. And judges tend to honor legitimate bills of sale rather than "original papers" (or copies, etc.). So it really wouldn't matter who holds the "papers" (assuming you mean "registration papers") - it would come down to whether there was a legitimate bill of sale, and whether all terms of the sales contract had been met by both parties. At least, this is the way things went down for a friend of mine that ended up in an ownership dispute (buyer reneged on payments after horse was shipped - along with registration passport - but my friend had a signed sales contract that specified horse was hers until paid for in full, so the court awarded the horse to her. But it was a lengthly process to get the horse back - and cost her a nice little bundle of money!)


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #2614
    Join Date
    May. 8, 2005
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    between here and there...in Arizona
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    I know this is a slight tangent, but does Hunters Peak own Grand Affair? This is all so confusing!


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #2615
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    Oct. 23, 2005
    Location
    Manheim, Pa.
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    OK, I have a large boarding/breeding facility. I have at least 6 retired performance horses here that are owned by people who do not have their registration papers, does this mean I should expect people to come crawling out of the woodwork with Registration papers to claim other peoples horses? How absurd......ownership takes place with a bill of sale. I have a KWPN broodmare which I own that came without her papers, I had to go back 4 owners and then to the trainer of that owner to get her passport/KWPN papers and then get a signature from that previous owner to get her registered. Legally owning and having the papers is two totally different things. Papers are only valuable to those who are breeding.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #2616
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    Aug. 1, 2005
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    Northern California
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    1,663

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    Quote Originally Posted by COTHalter44 View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that there was as I have not seen anything but good things from your program. The poster I quoted made it sound like there was something more to it.
    When she was still with JB yes there was lots of worry. Not after she left the farm.
    Cloverfox Stables



  17. #2617
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 2005
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    CO
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    I'm also confused...I suspect there's a lot of chatter going on via PM that isn't helping. Some of the Grande saga is starting to feel a bit like the telephone game. I *think* I'm following that:

    -Grande Affair was never sold to GFF, therefore no legal Bill of Sale existed that allowed for the "sale" to Hunter's Peak. (Someone PLEASE tell me there is a breeding lease that can be presented to law enforcement!)

    -Grande Affair's rightful owner is desperately trying to get her back, but has to deal with a leaser that now is shown to be a habitual liar.

    -Hunters Peak probably bought GA without honest knowledge of the mare not legally belonging to JB and GFF, thereby essentially "buying" a stolen mare, but also now doesn't APPEAR to accept the mare is not rightfully theirs (again, I say appear...they very well could be talking to TWF and/or law enforcement privately and doing what they can to keep it off public boards. One never truly knows the honest truth when seeing an Internet mess playing out)

    -Grande Divina is not in question (and really never was), but was tossed into the conversation (possibly as a way to stir the pot?). That mare should never have been mentioned.

    It really is a shame things have gone this way. I honestly believe the animals NEED to get out of that situation, but also that Jill needs psychiatric help. She seems to display (what I would classify as) classic addiction and hoarding symptoms. It's a sad story all around!
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #2618
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    One would hope that her past horse treatment in other counties would mean something to the Marin County Judge. So one also hopes that those who have bought animals (foals, broodmares) or recovered animals from her that were in negliected condition would step up and provide the information to the Marin County Humane Society. If there is a history, backed up with evidence, of mistreatment in the past, it's possible the judge might not allow her to own horses. And that would shut her down.

    So all the history of foals and mares who came directly from JB and GFF in medically proven bad condition could well be useful to getting her shut down.

    I have no idea what the California Evidence Rules are, but generally depositions from people in faraway places are admissible under certain conditions. At least civilly. Don't know about criminally, but would think this is considered a civil matter.

    Or maybe not.

    For instance, the person who took the photograph of the piles of dead foals would have to be available in some manner for the photo to be admissible. Or maybe not.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jan. 3, 2013 at 09:20 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #2619
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    Aug. 22, 2012
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    147

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    I realize it is still early in the day here, but any updates on the HS activity today?



  20. #2620
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    Peskee - did you buy a farm? As far as ownership not having anything to do with who has the papers - don't go to Europe with that mind frame. The person with the original papers for warmbloods there IS THE OWNER.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



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