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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmsuds View Post
    Discobold why are facts chosed to be represented as excuses? the goal in publishing facts is to dispute myths. Not to defend or excuse.
    But that is exactly what you are doing, trying to defend that woman.

    So my question for you, kmsuds, is this: does your good experience negate all the bad experiences others have had with her? I mean, there are pages and pages here, in addition to court judgements, people posting on her facebook looking for money, etc.

    Could you recommend others do business with her knowing this? That some people have good experiences, but many others [do not]?

    I mean, it isn't like these other people are making [stuff] up just to be mean to someone. She screwed them, end of story. That is a fact.
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Aug. 21, 2012 at 09:04 AM.



  2. #222
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill View Post
    Hoarding really is a mental illness, a form of OCD. It's not laziness.
    So the people who are just lazy get an out?



  3. #223
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    Jan. 17, 2010
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    1,693

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    Kmsuds, try looking on the USEF Leading HUNTER Sires List. The Hunter Breeding Lists show that some of us occasionally do to get youngers out and about and seen - to help market them. It's the HUNTER Sires list that tells the talent tale.

    Considering that a good percentage of the Gray Fox get who are out showing in HB were taken for payment of debt in lieu of cash, the numbers of them showing tell a story of more than conformational integrity. I have it on good authority that the money owed by Gray Fox Farm to Peter Pletcher was finally paid in the form of a horse or two.

    I breed hunters and jumpers. They actually have to be able to jump with scope and technique, and hopefully are bred to want to jump, great conformation being a part of that and something a breeder hopes to get from at least some of the offspring. I'm not surprised that a puppy mill churning out a lot of baby horses has enough youngsters left from any irregularities in the yearly crop to absolutely fill as many hunter breeding classes as they care to enter. The best Gray Fox youngsters that I've seen have resulted from more thoughtful crosses and can compete in-hand with the top tier of pretty and correct hunter "prospects".



  4. #224
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    Feb. 2, 2012
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    http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...ll-481679.html

    Thank you Daventry for posting this on another forum. I have shared the post to my facebook page.

    This operation needs to be shut down, not only for the animals sake but for the unsuspecting breeder/buyer/client...etc.



  5. #225
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    Eek, she not only leads the list, she has more points then the next three on the list combined. And here’s another surprise, in the top 50 breeders - there is only one (24th) in the top 50 that is from VA. I would have thought that as a group VA breeders dominated this ranking. We don’t do Hunters… how meaningful / credible are these sorts of statistics. Are there lots of Hunters that are simply listed as “pedigree unknown” so breeders don’t get credit?
    The two that Brandon shows, and owns, account for 427 of her 554 points. First Kiss was also shown by Brandon, and Rapture by Jay Raach. So only a few actually showed on the west coast, but she gets the credit for owning the stallion. If you think about the numbers just Jill has actually bred, there aren't a lot on this list.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  6. #226
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    Jan. 28, 2002
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    Alberta, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by KT Farms View Post
    http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/gray-fox-farm-jill-burnell-481679.html

    Thank you Daventry for posting this on another forum. I have shared the post to my facebook page.

    This operation needs to be shut down, not only for the animals sake but for the unsuspecting breeder/buyer/client...etc.
    It is amazing how many breeders don't know about any of this. But, I find very few breeders actually venture over to any of the forums...and actually have a life. There are many breeders hearing about all of this for the first time...so the more forums and public outlets this stuff can get out to and posted by everybody, the better Mare Owners can educate themselves and be informed.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle74 View Post
    Just curious how many people posting on here have competed against GFF foals and lost or won?
    Well Jill, RoyParker, her husband, some paid poor schmuck or whoever the heck it is...I've never competed against Gray Fox Farm or Jill Burnell and have no dog in this fight. While we breed hunters...we breed pony hunters...and we're in Canada. And yes we have stallions (pony stallions) who are no threat or competition to Jill or vice versa. That being said, the equine community as a whole is a small one, and I'm also a fellow Stallion Owner. One hell of a mess trickles down and can potentially cause problems for the rest of us, give Mare Owners reservations and make potential clients second guess their decisions and make them start to distrust the hard working and honest Stallion Owners, etc. that ARE out there.

    That being said, I now know a total of 4 people affected by Jill Burnell and Gray Fox Farm. Ironically, all of them have never come forward, never voiced their complaints and likely never will. I think the majority just want to let it go, don't want the fight or the publicity, are embarrassed or likely fear that after putting in all of the effort, nothing will come of it. Go ahead and call it "convenient". I know, it can only be hearsay if they don't come forward themselves One is owed a lot of money, one cannot seem to get a Breeding Certificate for their foal, one is owed semen and the other is owed breedings in exchange for a horse sold.

    While I understand there is no proof of my "friends" without them coming forward, can you imagine how many other ripped-off horse owners there are out there related to the same individual if very few of them are speaking up because they don't want to rock the boat? Seriously, how many more of them are out there that we'll never hear from? It's so sad.
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Pony, ISR/Oldenburg & RPSI pony stallions Daventry's Power Play, Goldhills Brandysnap LOM & Alvesta Picasso
    Also home to www.EquineAppraisers.com



  7. #227
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    Feb. 2, 2012
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    http://www.horseforum.com/horse-law/...o-point-94121/

    Here is someone else done wrong by JB.



  8. #228
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    Oct. 13, 2006
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    Trying to prove that the horses are abused is just adding to the confusion.

    Horses dont have to be hamsters in shavings or on rolling hills of grass to be well kept.

    The fact is she is obviously ripping tons of people off and even her sister in law is disgusted with her enough to tell us that she is a bum.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  9. #229
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    Mar. 10, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    Trying to prove that the horses are abused is just adding to the confusion.

    Horses dont have to be hamsters in shavings or on rolling hills of grass to be well kept.

    The fact is she is obviously ripping tons of people off and even her sister in law is disgusted with her enough to tell us that she is a bum.
    And her own brother! I mean, he's willing to correspond with concerned breeders, per the post on pg. 1. In-laws don't always get along, but a sibling?



  10. #230
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    May. 6, 2006
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    rapidan,virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle74 View Post
    Runwayz, I'm not f@cking kidding you! Why don't one of you brave, caring souls call Adult Protective Services and present your evidence! Why didn't the SIL? I had to do it on my ailing father's girlfriend and can assure you in Calif they don't hesitate to investigate and press charges in this litigation happy state. I see posts in regards to judgements and so forth without any substance. Someone did post a "bench warrant" from 6 years ago which isn't an arrest warrant. I want facts! The only facts I have are the pictures I took on my visit!
    A bench warrant is an arrest warrant issued directly by a sitting judge. As opposed to a warrant that is issued by a magistrate. You will indeed get arrested on a bench warrant. However, since this bench warrant was issued in Virginia, I highly doubt that the prosecutor would authorize extradition from California.

    Lucky for her.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    Rainy: http://tinyurl.com/kj7x53c
    Stash: http://tinyurl.com/mmm3p4e



  11. #231
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Not facts, just thoughts/theories.

    It is hard for someone to admit they have allowed their situation to get so far down hill. People have said here that the parents could have left at any time or why did not the daughter in law not call authorities; I would guess this is the reason.
    They love their daughter. Calling the authorities not only would get her in trouble but it would have out in public the filth and mess they have been living in. Living like that is bad enough. Having to explain to your friends and family why you did not do something about it is even harder.
    The son and daughter in law are not at fault here, neither are the elderly parents.



  12. #232
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    Mar. 11, 2012
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    In a far far away place....
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    I don't think anyone said the horses were abused, its the living situation for them that sucks. And they (horses) have no say in it. Sure they look ok, but it is the suffering of being exposed to the weather that is not ok. So maybe that constitutes abuse?



  13. #233
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    May. 17, 2000
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    And her own brother! I mean, he's willing to correspond with concerned breeders, per the post on pg. 1. In-laws don't always get along, but a sibling?
    well to be fair, history is not short on siblings who did not get along. It can get almost ... biblical in nature.

    But yes, it should be a big ol' red flag waiving in your face just in case the 4,987 previous red flags were not enough.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  14. #234
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    Nov. 7, 2008
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    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    So the people who are just lazy get an out?
    Hoarding as a psychiatric disorder is like any other disorder - there are specific diagnostic criteria. Never dusting and letting the dishes pile up because you're lazy is not going to get you a diagnosis of hoarding.

    Stuff like having animal poo on the floor and not cleaned up is actually specifically mentioned as one of the stages. (Although not the worst, amazingly enough.) I mean, if you look at those photos, it's not like the dog just had a housebreaking accident and someone snapped a photo while someone else was going for the paper towels and the Nature's Miracle - that's stuff that's been sitting there for some time.

    ETA: I don't breed, I don't plan on buying a baby, and I don't do hunters, so I have nothing in it to defend GFF. Honestly based on everything it sounds like, regardless of the state of the house (excepting the stallion area which is relevant to the business), there's plenty going on that this person should be getting in serious trouble for and it's ridiculous she's just skating along.

    My intention in commenting is only to make the point that things like hoarding can be legitimate medical/psychiatric problems. Our social approach to mental health is pathetic and part of it is because so many people do dismiss real problems as 'just laziness' or 'you're just a bit down' and it's just not that simple. If we get better at recognizing that there can be real health issues here, then maybe more people will get the proper help they need and we won't see so many problems associated with untreated mental health issues, like animal hoarding gone unchecked.

    (Note also: Having a mental illness like hoarding is not an automatic excuse that means you don't have to deal with the problems you've made. It is an explanation for how the situation came to be and how you may not be able to deal with things in the way someone else would, but you still need to get help and figure out how to deal. Explanation is not the same as excuse. Likewise, having a mental illness like hoarding does not automatically mean that were it not for the mental illness, the individual would be all hearts and smiles and unicorn poo - I'm quite sure it's possible to have hoarding problems and be a genuinely nice person, but just as possible to have hoarding problems and be the kind of person who lies and manipulates people without a second thought.)



  15. #235
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    Oct. 13, 2006
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    The best therapy would be to pay back the people she owes, get out of horses (breeding), and clean up the dog crap and chickens herself.

    But Im sure that lots of therapy sessions and pill popping to make her "forgive" herself will be the warm fuzzy way it is dealt with.

    oy yoy yoy
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  16. #236
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    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle74 View Post
    Ever consider the source of the original post? The sister-in-law obviously has issues with how her in-laws have helped Jill out financially and makes no bones about it. So if conditions were so bad for the in-laws, why does the SIL wait until now to "rescue" the in-laws? They live in the same town, certainly they've been there before and seen the "horrible" conditions. Funny how the timing is so close to Jill purchasing 30+ acres and moving her facility with possible financial help from her parents thus pissing off the SIL who is upset about not getting help herself? Unfortunately in Calif it's all to common for people to walk away from their homes due to the decline in property values, so Jill certainly isn't the first. Google Tom Sullivan the Fox News financial guru who makes $5 mil a year as he did the same thing in my neighborhood of Granite Bay.

    It's unfortunate that most of you in your pretentious little circle want to make accusations with only a "claim" that these photo's are from Jill's house. I've been to the facility, I posted pictures, I will visit again in the next week or so to the new farm and take more pictures. My advice to everyone involved in the discussion is to STFU if you haven't personnally been to her house!

    Yes she has a warrant from 6 years ago, something she should definitely clear! Again, PM me if you would like me to call you, I am not Jill!
    You might be as mental as she at this point! The most depressing picture of the whole lot was the tiny make shift bed crammed in the corner with rows and rows of pill bottles and trash lining the area CLEARLY a space intended for one of her elderly parents! http://www.flickr.com/photos/5149840...57631063762854

    I can tell you for a fact from the dozens of elderly pulled from horrifying conditions the often feel as if they have no choice being unable to care for themselves and the fear of being forced into nursing homes and hospices keeps their mouths closed while they endure the most appalling conditions.

    It speaks no shouts to me that if she could not clean up her act to properly care for her ailing parents happily subjecting them to that filth there is no saving grace. This thread and the many others and their resonating cacophony of claims and judgments against her should be enough...yet even when photos of physical filth and dehumanizing conditions are provided SOME people continue to defend her. Maybe their mental health should also be taken into question.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    The best therapy would be to pay back the people she owes, get out of horses (breeding), and clean up the dog crap and chickens herself.

    But Im sure that lots of therapy sessions and pill popping to make her "forgive" herself will be the warm fuzzy way it is dealt with.
    Actually, I'd question any kind of program to help her deal with the problem that didn't include also dealing first hand with the mess, like paying back what she owes and cleaning up and recognizing her limitations when it comes to owning animals.

    Effective treatment doesn't deny that mental health issues cause problems, imo. It instead helps the individual to identify and develop coping mechanisms to manage or prevent the problems arising in the future. Because yeah, if you just pretend it didn't happen and someone magically cleans it all up - there's no need to 'own' the fact that there is a problem and that the normal way of doing things wasn't working.

    Though I am not an expert in this area. But if I knew someone who was being treated for hoarding and all they were doing was talking and 'popping pills' and not learning life skill/life management stuff, I would probably ask about it.



  18. #238
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    Oct. 23, 2011
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdow View Post
    Hoarding as a psychiatric disorder is like any other disorder - there are specific diagnostic criteria. Never dusting and letting the dishes pile up because you're lazy is not going to get you a diagnosis of hoarding.

    Stuff like having animal poo on the floor and not cleaned up is actually specifically mentioned as one of the stages. (Although not the worst, amazingly enough.) I mean, if you look at those photos, it's not like the dog just had a housebreaking accident and someone snapped a photo while someone else was going for the paper towels and the Nature's Miracle - that's stuff that's been sitting there for some time.

    ETA: I don't breed, I don't plan on buying a baby, and I don't do hunters, so I have nothing in it to defend GFF. Honestly based on everything it sounds like, regardless of the state of the house (excepting the stallion area which is relevant to the business), there's plenty going on that this person should be getting in serious trouble for and it's ridiculous she's just skating along.

    My intention in commenting is only to make the point that things like hoarding can be legitimate medical/psychiatric problems. Our social approach to mental health is pathetic and part of it is because so many people do dismiss real problems as 'just laziness' or 'you're just a bit down' and it's just not that simple. If we get better at recognizing that there can be real health issues here, then maybe more people will get the proper help they need and we won't see so many problems associated with untreated mental health issues, like animal hoarding gone unchecked.

    (Note also: Having a mental illness like hoarding is not an automatic excuse that means you don't have to deal with the problems you've made. It is an explanation for how the situation came to be and how you may not be able to deal with things in the way someone else would, but you still need to get help and figure out how to deal. Explanation is not the same as excuse. Likewise, having a mental illness like hoarding does not automatically mean that were it not for the mental illness, the individual would be all hearts and smiles and unicorn poo - I'm quite sure it's possible to have hoarding problems and be a genuinely nice person, but just as possible to have hoarding problems and be the kind of person who lies and manipulates people without a second thought.)
    I agree with you. However...this whole topic hits a nerve.

    Psychiatric problems don't exist in America. Or that's what a vast number of Americans would have people believe...until someone goes on a shooting spree or lives with 50 cats and piles of sh!t...but then we blame gun control or animal control for not doing their part.

    ETA: There's also the stigma attached to asking for help that inhibits a lot of people as well. Asking for help is not a weakness or some kind of defect.

    I think it's funny we as a society can accept animals as mentally "damaged goods," but we can't even come close to accepting that some people need help. It's heartbreaking.

    That's not to say that she hasn't done wrong or that she isn't at all responsible. In all likelihood though, she may not believe she's been doing things wrong because she needs LOTS of mental help. I wonder how many of you have ever personally dealt with a untreated sociopath? Or someone with an untreated full blown personality disorder? You would know that their reality isn't even close to the real version of events because it isn't the way their brain is wired. They. Need. Help. It isn't a joke. Oh, and they can function quite well out in society. They can be very charming (and manipulative) when they need it.

    I apologize for ranting...back on topic...

    She should be out of business until her life gets turned around, but dismissing the root of the problem will never fix anything. I hope her family tries to get her some help. She could really use it.
    "Life ain't always beautiful, but it's a beautiful ride."



  19. #239
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    Oct. 13, 2006
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    If they dont think its wrong then how do they know to hide it?

    How do they know to make their website something different, and how do they know to avoid people and warrants?

    Its too easy to just diagnose people as "ill" these days, even over the internet!

    When it is victimless and you want to be dirty, sure, but otherwise when you lie and get caught, you just get caught in my book.

    It just adds to it that you were also very dirty at the same time.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  20. #240
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    Apr. 20, 2011
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    geez, I've read this thread, I read the last one, and the one before, and I keep thinking two things over and over

    1. How in the HE77 does she just keep getting away with it all??? I just don't understand! If I tried any ONE of those- not paid the vet/grain store/trainer/etc, et all, I can only imagine how fast the state marshall would be at my door with paperwork! I. just. don't. understand.

    2. Thank HEAVENS and a COTHer for narrowly avoiding doing business with Jill Burnell-- I was in communication with Jill about breeding to Redwine, asked for some advice from a certain COTHer, she pointed me here to the *other* train wreck thread, and I thankfully decided not to take the chance!

    whew!! I'll probably always WANT a Redwine baby, but I'll never go for it as long as he's owned by Jill Burnell :-(

    ~ ~ maybe we should all start a letter writing campaign to the Hoarders show, perhaps they would feature her/the farm, and at the very least, some of the horses would find other homes, as even if she's moving them all, she's just going to keep acquiring them, and pretty soon the outside is going to look like the inside of her home........ ?



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