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  1. #1981
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    Oct. 30, 2005
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    Why not start a separate thread about body condition scores and/or IR before the mods come on and point out that this thread is once again going off in a direction different than the stated purpose.



  2. #1982
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    Sep. 20, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by sid View Post
    Redwine looks IR.
    What means IR ? What is this abbreviation (?) standing for ?
    Thank you - I am no native speaker...

    I saw Red Wine in Germany and he looks certainly different in these pics. He had a huuuuge crescent neck. So if not in training at all anymore the neck looks now as I would expect it to look like.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  3. #1983
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    Nov. 4, 2003
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    Dallas, Georgia
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    I.R. = Insulin Resistant
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."



  4. #1984
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    Oct. 11, 2007
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    Andover, MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    You guys were speculating that the horses weren't being fed and now you are complaining that they are too fat?
    Having so many friends in the Morgan world with IR horses... It can take very little hay to keep an IR horse fat. I know several with IR who are kept on dirt lots and get maybe 2 flakes (10 pounds?) of hay per day, no grain except maybe a handful to get their meds/supplements into them. A lot of people will use a slow feeder or hay net with tiny holes so the poor things spend more time eating.

    There may be ribby mares and babies elsewhere, and as someone else said, Romantic Star looks a bit lean in those photos... not skinny at all, but not with the roundness and "bloom" a mature stallion normally has.

    Very sad in any case, and IR is inherited, right?

    (ETA: Another thing about IR horses... they can be of normal weight, even a bit thin, and still have that cresty neck. I leased a grade Morgan mare for a while who had the cresty neck and fat pads on her butt, but was not at all fat anywhere else. Just as some people with Type 2 diabetes will be thick around the middle even if they are thin everywhere else.)
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine



  5. #1985
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    [quote=Laurierace;6579757]WHO CARES!?! If the horses looked like God himself was caring for them on a daily basis I would not do business with her.

    Exactly, that's the bottom line as it pertains to warning others of business dealings.

    IMO, the IR discussion was at least educational for other horse owners -- and perhaps should move to Horse Care (but there is scads of info there anyway) at this point so as not to derail the original purpose of this thread.



  6. #1986
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    "Very sad in any case, and IR is inherited, right?"

    This has not been proven as far as I know. Genetics may make them "prone", but not proven.



  7. #1987
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    Sep. 21, 2012
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    15

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    Its very disturbing to see everyone bantering whether RedWine is IR or not. If he was do you think he would be getting the proper care to offset it???? Of course not. Gray Fox Farms is the same as a puppy mill just with horses. To many horses on one piece of property at her old place and now at the new one. " Puppy Mills" do not care about exercising the animals, providing shelter, safe places to have their litters, proper vet care, clean business practices. These types of people are not right in the head, have no conscience and will continue doing what they do as long as people keep buying and our systems allow them to run business and get away with criminal activities



  8. #1988
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisycutter87 View Post
    I compare his build to this stallion (who i found through a quick google search)

    http://www.allstallionsdirectory.com...3/hn0023lg.JPG

    I dont consider him fat either...
    The stallion in your photo is not showing IR signs at all. He is not really fat, but is a heavier old type stallion. Their muscles are bulkier. Red Wine's bloodlines are a more modern, lighter type horse.



  9. #1989
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    Oct. 13, 2003
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    The bottom line here is that Redwine and Romantic Star do not look like they're owned and managed by ANYONE who has the title of USEF's Leading Hunter Breeding Breeder.

    On the contrary, they look like back yard horses living in back yard conditions.

    The photos made me sad as well. Those stallions have done right by JB for many years, and they ought to be kept in better condition (body and grooming) than what the photos depict. Where's the pride of ownership ?

    Laurierace, I know you disagree with this and I understand your point. Yet the condition of those horses is a part of the problem of which this thread is about.

    Those horses deserve better. And no one will ever change my mind.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  10. #1990
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    The stallion in your photo is not showing IR signs at all. He is not really fat, but is a heavier old type stallion. Their muscles are bulkier. Red Wine's bloodlines are a more modern, lighter type horse.
    I actually think his body type is exactly like Rotspon and Rubinstein, and, IMO, neither of those are light or modern as we think of what that means today.

    Rotspon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvnt34_RHWA
    Rubinstein: http://www.a-1performancesires.com/Rubinstein.htm (scroll down and look at the pic in the bottom right.)

    Redwine is certainly heavy/fat, but I think the cresty neck would be there regardless. If you look at his pictures as a youngster, he had already developed the neck and the crest was there even in his under saddle videos. Whether it's from IR or genetics combined with excess weight is speculation.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  11. #1991
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    I would like nothing more than for all of Jill Burnell's horses to have a new home. I would love to be able to tout Redwine's praises from the roof tops because I really do love my filly. But there are so many concrete, black and white things to focus on like unpaid bills, judgments, bounced checks, unfulfilled contracts etc that adding the gray areas of horse care to the mix is not only overkill but also takes away from the real message.



  12. #1992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I would like nothing more than for all of Jill Burnell's horses to have a new home. I would love to be able to tout Redwine's praises from the roof tops because I really do love my filly. But there are so many concrete, black and white things to focus on like unpaid bills, judgments, bounced checks, unfulfilled contracts etc that adding the gray areas of horse care to the mix is not only overkill but also takes away from the real message.
    I definitely hear what Laurie is saying. If Jill's lab & farm were pristine and the horses in optimal condition; her business practices are still horrible.

    However, I do think that the pictures of "reality" compared to her website clearly show misrepresentation. And, the conditon of the horses and the way they are kept is relevant to anyone considering sending a mare her way or anyone considering buying a foal from her -- just as the "lab" conditions are relevant to anyone considering buying semen. Different aspects of the mess that is Jill Burnell / Gray Fox Farm are going to resonate more with different people -- and for some people the condition / care of the horses is a bigger concern than the financial stuff. INHO, any and all legitimate concerns / issues that are shared and result in more people reading this thread and spreading the word of warning about this mess; the better.

    Now, I need to go read about IR and have a serious talk w/ my fat, out of work gelding :0
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing



  13. #1993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    But there are so many concrete, black and white things to focus on like unpaid bills, judgments, bounced checks, unfulfilled contracts etc that adding the gray areas of horse care to the mix is not only overkill but also takes away from the real message.
    The condition of the stallions is part of the entire story...another red flag, another symptom of the trouble behind closed doors. These stallions are her livelihood. They are "the franchise" - the star players - of Gray Fox Farms.

    Talking about them in no way diminishes the unpaid bills, judgments, money and horses lost, that her clients have experienced. Those issues are not forgotten, and certainly remain important.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  14. #1994
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    Mar. 11, 2012
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    In a far far away place....
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    I think talking about the stallions condition keeps this post alive. We have exhausted the old stuff unless there is new information out there.



  15. #1995
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    Has there been any update from equinedriver? I've been following this thread and not seen one lately (but could have missed it).



  16. #1996
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    Um....



  17. #1997
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    Has anyone heard for this equinedriver person who was organizing information from people who had had issues with JB & GFF. It seems like there is no feed back from her.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  18. #1998
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Texas
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    I recently saw a couple of mares for sale, one in foal to Aloha and the other to Redwine. I asked if she had breeding certs and she said paperwork was in order. Really a concern after reading this thread ...



  19. #1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by runwayz View Post
    Um....



  20. #2000
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    Apr. 29, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokoda View Post
    I recently saw a couple of mares for sale, one in foal to Aloha and the other to Redwine. I asked if she had breeding certs and she said paperwork was in order. Really a concern after reading this thread ...

    We must have seen the same ad! TB mares? I liked what I saw and then wondered if you could even get the babies papered.
    Holly
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