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  1. #3981
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    So now a (so far) three week hospitalization is considered a "slight" injury.
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


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  2. #3982
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    Quote Originally Posted by hAlterHorse View Post
    Did you read the document?

    "Food Supply:... Mrs. Burnell stated that due to the condition of the roads, that they have been unable to purchase large amounts of hay to be brought onto the property. Their current program is to store the hay on their truck and to purchase more hay as needed until the contemplated hay barn is built. On this day, I observed a pick-up truck full of alfalfa hay, which arrived shortly after my arrival."
    Someone who knows how to stack bales can get a ton of hay on a pick up. (Amazing but true).

    That is 2000#. MY horses get 20 - 25 pounds of hay a day (plus feed and supplements). Say JB's horses are getting 20 pounds each/day x 30 horses = 600 pounds a day are being fed. At that rate, the hay will be gone in 3.33 days.

    If JB is feeding only 10 pounds of hay/day (oh my, it makes me sad to even type those words), that means the hay will last a week. Please, someone report back how soon more hay is delivered.....

    I am also questioning that she is feeding alfalfa hay. No way can horses who are that malnourished process such a rich type of hay. It would be like giving a starving man a full roast beef dinner with a rich desert. It would go right through them and give then terrible diarrhea (sp?). Orchard grass or timothy would be more appropriate.

    If the horses are NOT getting alfalfa, but a medium rich hay more suited to their precarious condition, then whoever reported the truck contained alfalfa (a) is not a horseperson, or (b) is not reporting accurately for some other reason.
    Don't Worry About Hurting My Feelings Because I Guarantee You, Not One Bit Of My Self Esteem Is Tied Up In Your Acceptance.


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  3. #3983
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    FWIW, someone just pointed out to me that Dr. Ellis just received her DVM in 2010. I am thinking it may be far easier for someone like JillB to blow smoke up the a** of a fairly recent grad then a vet with many years experience.

    And in reading through her report, I am struck by how many horses she noted as in serious need of dental work. Really makes me wonder if JillB used the poor dental condition of those horses as an excuse for their poor body condition.
    Well that may well be. But in the end the owner of a horse or horses should not be excused for "ignorance" of all their care. What...blame the dentist of lack of one. Geesh. Do you blame no feed because the hay or grain wasn't delivered on time? That is a victim state of mind, and often you can see this with people who have no more money.

    Very clever defense, but ignorance or creating a defense of ignorance doesn't cut it. Not with someone so "experienced' with horses and breeding that was the CV that was out there and is being expounded upon by her own court papers.

    Clearly she thinks she knows better than anyone else. And that IS a bug that plagues horse people.

    In this case the ego will hopefully fail. It is what it is. Even a non horse person can see that. Power and facade gone wild, with the scoring on the USET for the unsuspecting to buy hook line and sinker.

    In that defense, they look at the horses they see in front of them as they should. The horse nor the owner that was "able" to get that progeny should be punished from where that horse came.

    But these offenses, terrible offenses, in the horse world should be announced before things like this go on and on and on.


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  4. #3984
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    Stripes, how do you figure? The horse wasn't injured at the time, his body condition hasn't been addressed, but even if he was thin, thin horses are shipped all the time! As said before, he probably saw it as a way to get the horse out of the situation. Why harp on that vet who did nothing wrong?
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


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  5. #3985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    I am also questioning that she is feeding alfalfa hay. No way can horses who are that malnourished process such a rich type of hay. It would be like giving a starving man a full roast beef dinner with a rich desert. It would go right through them and give then terrible diarrhea (sp?). Orchard grass or timothy would be more appropriate.

    If the horses are NOT getting alfalfa, but a medium rich hay more suited to their precarious condition, then whoever reported the truck contained alfalfa (a) is not a horseperson, or (b) is not reporting accurately for some other reason.
    Alfalfa and oat hay are the cheapest hays, locally. Orchard Grass is, currently, at about $22 a bale (140#). For all we know, it could be cattle alfalfa. She owes the local feed store, so, who knows where she's buying her hay.


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  6. #3986
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    Quote Originally Posted by sid View Post
    Well that may well be. But in the end the owner of a horse or horses should not be excused for "ignorance" of all their care. What...blame the dentist of lack of one. Geesh. Do you blame no feed because the hay or grain wasn't delivered on time? That is a victim state of mind, and often you can see this with people who have no more money.

    Very clever defense, but ignorance or creating a defense of ignorance doesn't cut it. Not with someone so "experienced' with horses and breeding that was the CV that was out there and is being expounded upon by her own court papers.

    Clearly she thinks she knows better than anyone else. And that IS a bug that plagues horse people.

    In this case the ego will hopefully fail. It is what it is. Even a non horse person can see that. Power and facade gone wild, with the scoring on the USET for the unsuspecting to buy hook line and sinker.

    In that defense, they look at the horses they see in front of them as they should. The horse nor the owner that was "able" to get that progeny should be punished from where that horse came.

    But these offenses, terrible offenses, in the horse world should be announced before things like this go on and on and on.
    It sounded like she admitted to not having a handle on her dental program, assuming that was her excuse for the horses being thin. Sounds better to say they are starving because of bad teeth rather than because I can't feed them?


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  7. #3987
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Dogs View Post
    Penny - she was sued within 6-8 months by the "co-owner" partner in Redwine
    She was sued by John French- public record - for not paying fees
    She by the grapevine never paid Peter Pletcher

    Thus I am not sure she EVER had the money to do anything she has done.

    Wish I could get my horses shown by top trainers for no payment - have to work on my spiel
    Peter Pletcher is listed as owner of one of her Redwine babies (per her web site). I am GUESSING that she paid him off in horse flesh, which is why he has not sued her.
    Don't Worry About Hurting My Feelings Because I Guarantee You, Not One Bit Of My Self Esteem Is Tied Up In Your Acceptance.


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  8. #3988
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    I seem to remember when RS was seized they said along with the broken jaw and injuries from the fight his BCS was 1.
    Maybe it is in the original statement that was issued.
    Kanoe Godby
    www.dyrkgodby.com
    See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.



  9. #3989
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    No doubt he thought the horse should just stay there? That was the better choice? There's been plenty said on this thread, but not many people thought the better choice was no choice at all.

    I also noticed that some people are saying that a horse scored as a 3 shouldn't have the phrase "thin/bordering on very thin" following a score of 3. However the henneke scale describes 3 as thin and 2 as very thin. Sure, a 2.5 is more accurate, but based on the scale the Vet should be using, that description didn't sugar coat it, so I'm at a loss as to why anyone has an issue with that? Unless of course the issue is that the horse is not a 3, but a 1 or 2, in which case your beef isn't with the Vet, but the agency that didn't seize the horse...
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  10. #3990
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDE Driver View Post
    I seem to remember when RS was seized they said along with the broken jaw and injuries from the fight his BCS was 1.
    Maybe it is in the original statement that was issued.
    I seen to remember that was what the rumor mill said along that along with he was a 2, he had a broken jaw or not, but that was not officially stated anywhere that I have seen, just that he was seized due to untreated serious injuries.

    Mind you, I have no doubt he was not in good condition, but I suspect the best thing that could have happened to him was to stand on a trailer with a bag full of hay in cool weather and head to a home that came with food. And vet care. And shelter. And safe turn out facilities.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  11. #3991
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    I searched both Jill Burnell and Gray Gox Farm, LLC on USEF and there are several horses there which do not appear on her website or are listed as sold. Anyone know the deal with these: Collateral, Culpable, Envision, Accessorized, Action Hero, Apricot Hill, Finger Paints, First Kiss, Perfect Alibi, Rip Tide, Rocket Science, or Rumors Fly?

    I know most of these are probably safe in homes which just have given them new names or haven't yet done the USEF transfer of ownership, but I want to be thorough and make sure we aren't missing any horses.
    Last edited by HunterRider992; Jan. 17, 2013 at 11:15 PM. Reason: found one


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  12. #3992
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    That is a pretty sad vet rapport, those horses are not doing well. Perhaps not in immediate danger, this is not a good situation. It won't take much for an atty to turn that into favor of the MHS. Most of it, when explained by an expert, is actually in favor of the MHS.

    For one, she notes her observations, but also her 'hear say' without providing That she has verified this information through receipts, purchase orders etc.

    Any good lawyer would reply with 'do you have any proof of that?' I mean JB can say anything she would like, she can say the moon is blue. But as a business, she has to keep records for taxes, so she has to be able to provide this proof in discovery. Though I doubt that. She can come up with something, but a smart atty would subpoena the original receipts from the seller.

    While she is qualified to determine and observe the horses, and what is right for the horses, it is obvious the rest is just the story spun to the vet by JB. Those are just meaningless with out proof.

    And if JB did as said she did, providing this proof is easy.

    I mean bad teeth don't cause that much distress that quickly.

    2 things caught my attention immediately.

    Where are the other stallions? If they are gone, are other horses gone?
    Those are very few mares actually in foal.


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  13. #3993
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    Was Porta Westfalica a Thoroughbred mare who was owned by a COTHer? Or maybe a WBxTB. If she's who I think she is, she has a wonderful tail female.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  14. #3994
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    Irony at it's finest. If Mistyblue or any of the other COTH sleuths wants to connect the dots on who the breeder of the foal in this post is, please feel free. This web is so tangled not even a spider could negotiate it!

    http://grayfoxfarm.blogspot.com/2012...your-baby.html


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  15. #3995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    Someone who knows how to stack bales can get a ton of hay on a pick up. (Amazing but true).

    That is 2000#. MY horses get 20 - 25 pounds of hay a day (plus feed and supplements). Say JB's horses are getting 20 pounds each/day x 30 horses = 600 pounds a day are being fed. At that rate, the hay will be gone in 3.33 days.

    If JB is feeding only 10 pounds of hay/day (oh my, it makes me sad to even type those words), that means the hay will last a week. Please, someone report back how soon more hay is delivered.....
    Ah, someone who can do math and knows how to figure the rate of what is being fed by weight, number of horses being fed, and how many days that will last. Rate of consumption by number of horses and expected/necessary daily intake should also have been calculated for water as well as the hay and compared to the storage capacity of the tank mentioned for any status report on Burnell's situation that even mentions hay and water. Those figures would dictate how often it would be necessary for the Burnell's to maintain the supposed rates they claim the horses are being given in food and water. Where's the water coming from? Are they paying for it? Where is the hay coming from? Are there receipts to back up the rate that they claim they are feeding? These things can be quantified, somebody just needs to mandate that they do prove it, otherwise it's just Jill opening her mouth and some sound coming out of it. Btw, the scenario with the pick-up truck coming with a load of hay on it? Deja vu; that is exactly what happened on the day in March two years ago that I visited GFF in Petaluma to take a look at Redwine. It was a red flag then and still is: there was only a couple of bales of hay in the "storage area" which was nothing more than a small RV cover. When I saw hay being delivered by the pick-up truck load for the, idk, 25 or more horses on the place that I saw, I didn't count, I KNEW she had bad credit with the hay brokers or feed stores, and was probably on a cash-only basis. I used to be a licensed vet tech that worked with a large animal vet practice, and had seen scenes like that at least a few times. It's a red flag for anyone holding this many horses. I personally have far fewer horses than GFF to feed, and I buy hay 40 ton at a time and have the hay barn to house it in. Buying hay by the pick-up truck load is BS when there are this many horses.


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  16. #3996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I realize that everyone is entitled to representation which means someone has to defend what seems indefensible to most of us ala Jerry Sandusky and such. My question is, in order to defend that person does the lawyer have to BELIEVE what their client has told them to be the truth or can they just repeat what they have been told? If that lawyer believes that crap she is as crazy as Jill Burnell.
    No. A lawyer does not have to believe his client. This is one of the reasons I got out of practicing litigation -- I could not stomach representing someone who I did not believe was being truthful. The only thing a lawyer cannot do is suborn perjury --- letting his client take the oath to tell the truth when he KNOWS that his client intends to lie on the stand.
    Don't Worry About Hurting My Feelings Because I Guarantee You, Not One Bit Of My Self Esteem Is Tied Up In Your Acceptance.


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  17. #3997
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Was Porta Westfalica a Thoroughbred mare who was owned by a COTHer? Or maybe a WBxTB. If she's who I think she is, she has a wonderful tail female.
    Porta is a Trakehner who was listed for sale on Warmbloods for sale on 11/2009 by http://www.castell-trakehner.webs.com/
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  18. #3998
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    I have been following this story for a long, long time and am more disgusted than ever. Perhaps the vet's experience helping horses in impoverished areas has given her a skewed view of acceptable practices. Those poor animals. Skinny, pot-bellied, snotty noses, crusty eyes... what did I miss?


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  19. #3999
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Was Porta Westfalica a Thoroughbred mare who was owned by a COTHer? Or maybe a WBxTB. If she's who I think she is, she has a wonderful tail female.
    The Porta Westfalica you're thinking about is standing in my barn, safe and sound. It is a completely different mare ( you did do the pedigree research on my mare for me )
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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  20. #4000
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    Ah. I was wondering if it was this mare:
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/porta+westfalica2
    Thanks, Hillside H. I remembered the pedigree that went with the name, and hoped you weren't one who had been cozened by JB.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



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