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  1. #3721
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    A Canadian forum. Daventry made two posts regarding the situation but either no Canadian were victims or nobody cared!
    Do you think every breeder is on every Forum ?! Posting in a wide known Forum is great, but it does not insure you are getting in contact with everyone. And as you can see there are more and more people coming out of their holes eventually here and there and mayber also quite a few in the background that read here and contact directly MHS, Daventry, Kathy or whomeever. Just becasue they do not post here does not mean they are not existing.
    same accounts for pictures etc. of seized horses ! As someone stated there is legally something behind the scenes.
    I just draw a scenario using a lot of imagination: Pictures are posted here and MHs says on their homepage: look at those mattreated animals. JB's laywer goes after the people publishing this and win for badmouthing (or whatever is the right jurisdictional expression in english): what would that gain ? only money to spent on something not necessairy, whre the exact money could better be used to pay for feed or UC Davies etc. etc.
    So we should all be patient and wait.
    To be honest: does a picture change anything ? Would one donate more or less ? Do people fear that all this is the same sort of fake/fraud to gather money as JBs actions ?


    Coming back:
    Buy and/or donate at the auction or to MHS !!!
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #3722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    Saje, I think the fact three of the four are hospitalized at UC Davis is enough proof they were in extreme distress. But maybe that's just me...
    UC Davis also has a rehab/layup/foaling operation, so just the statement that the "horses are at UC Davis" does not mean they necessarily rise to the level of a clinic admission.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these horses were seized for no reason, but when severely debilitated horses have been awarded to equine rescues like Days End who have experience and capability to rehabilitate horses, they usually do not go to a clinic. They go to their facility because they have the necessary experience in rehabbing these horses.

    It does not really seem that MHS (based on their website and annual report) has experience in working with horses like more dedicated equine rescues. That's not a slam against them - they have an excellent reputation with small animals but their annual report doesn't even mention horses, and the numbers of "small farm animals and livestock" they deal with pales in comparison to dogs/cats and even wildlife. Which is all to say they probably do not have facilities or experience to deal with the few livestock seizures they deal with annually. But there is UC Davis not only with a clinic, but a complete layup/foaling program and two breeding stallions (so stallion facilities - they have 'em). It would make perfect sense to work out a deal with them to handle any seized horses - especially pregnant mares and a stallion, right? Win win all the way around. So based on the information we have (essentially none) that could mean a horse at "UC Davis" is there being actively treated for injury/illness rising to the level of a critical care admission OR just under the supervision of a trained professional/someone with rehab experience and being fed. Which is typically what a neglected horse requires more than anything.

    the latter is not nearly as dramatic and internet worthy as being admitted to a clinic!!1!1!! but it does sound a lot more like what you would expect in a typical seizure...
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3723
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    Even if you were to pick a nice round number for basic board say 20 dollars a day X 4 horse X any medical care it still adds up quick and in a hurry.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #3724
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    absolutely! But to think the horses rise to the level of a critical care/clinic admission assumes facts not in evidence. That does not mean feeding neglected horses is cheap. I imagine there would be fewer rescues in far more dire need of funds if that was the case.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #3725
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    Why isn't enough that several sources have cited that the horses were in inhumane conditions, suffered malnutrition, serious neglect and injuries and thus seized? This is enough information. Trust the parties actually involved in this. At some point there may be photos or more information released. Right now the horses are in good hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    UC Davis also has a rehab/layup/foaling operation, so just the statement that the "horses are at UC Davis" does not mean they necessarily rise to the level of a clinic admission.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these horses were seized for no reason, but when severely debilitated horses have been awarded to equine rescues like Days End who have experience and capability to rehabilitate horses, they usually do not go to a clinic. They go to their facility because they have the necessary experience in rehabbing these horses.

    It does not really seem that MHS (based on their website and annual report) has experience in working with horses like more dedicated equine rescues. That's not a slam against them - they have an excellent reputation with small animals but their annual report doesn't even mention horses, and the numbers of "small farm animals and livestock" they deal with pales in comparison to dogs/cats and even wildlife. Which is all to say they probably do not have facilities or experience to deal with the few livestock seizures they deal with annually. But there is UC Davis not only with a clinic, but a complete layup/foaling program and two breeding stallions (so stallion facilities - they have 'em). It would make perfect sense to work out a deal with them to handle any seized horses - especially pregnant mares and a stallion, right? Win win all the way around. So based on the information we have (essentially none) that could mean a horse at "UC Davis" is there being actively treated for injury/illness rising to the level of a critical care admission OR just under the supervision of a trained professional/someone with rehab experience and being fed. Which is typically what a neglected horse requires more than anything.

    the latter is not nearly as dramatic and internet worthy as being admitted to a clinic!!1!1!! but it does sound a lot more like what you would expect in a typical seizure...


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #3726
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    I do not get why it matters either.

    The MHS is given a chunk of money to help with a rescue that was clearly necessary (for so many reasons). Lovely people are donating and bidding because to them this is plenty of reason and they want to help in this case at this time.

    Period.

    The monies are going to a group with a good reputation for doing rescue work, even if it is not a hugely known for horse rescue.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #3727
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    Why isn't enough that several sources have cited that the horses were in inhumane conditions, suffered malnutrition, serious neglect and injuries and thus seized? This is enough information. Trust the parties actually involved in this. At some point there may be photos or more information released. Right now the horses are in good hands.
    Either my ability to explain myself or your ability to read is greatly compromised...since you kind of restated my post minus a point or two.

    When you say the horses are "several sources have cited that the horses were in inhumane conditions, suffered malnutrition, serious neglect and injuries and thus seized? This is enough information" that is what the following statement says. With less adjectives.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these horses were seized for no reason,
    And when you say "Trust the parties actually involved in this. ... Right now the horses are in good hands"

    That's what this part said (with more adjectives, adverbs, nouns and verbs and actually more of a compliment to MHS):

    That's not a slam against them - they have an excellent reputation with small animals but their annual report doesn't even mention horses, and the numbers of "small farm animals and livestock" they deal with pales in comparison to dogs/cats and even wildlife. Which is all to say they probably do not have facilities or experience to deal with the few livestock seizures they deal with annually. But there is UC Davis, not only with a clinic, but a complete layup/foaling program and two breeding stallions (so stallion facilities - they have 'em). It would make perfect sense to work out a deal with them to handle any seized horses - especially pregnant mares and a stallion, right? Win win all the way around.
    Still an entirely different issue than what level of care they might be getting and most people imagine a horse to be admitted to a hospital for 3+ weeks to be a very sick horse needing a very specialized level of care that an experienced horseman cannot provide. However since there are multiple levels of care at this facility paired with a probable lack of experienced horseman/facilities with MHS, like I said, it could just be a horse getting food and shelter. Which again, is what most rescue horses desperately need.

    (I guess this is where I should once again reiterate for the literary challenged that I do not in any way think food and shelter is something a horse should go without or is acceptable or excusable horsemanship... even though I've never said or implied that, only that

    it. is. not. the. same. health. status. as. a. critical. care. admission.

    And in the interest of fair disclosure, I'm not saying it's better/worse. Just not the same. And I should also state that I'm pretty sure if you asked my younger horse, he feels his slow feeder qualifies as starvation, so I could just be lying, depending on who was asked.)

    Seriously I should not be continually surprised that pragmatism and common sense is not nearly as much fun as the dramatical nature of the BB's.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  8. #3728
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    Dec. 12, 2007
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    Why is it that when other equine rescues are involved in high profile cases, they are able to release statements and photos? Days End does this routinely. Apparently that does not jeopardize their legal cases. How would an accurate photo or a factual statement of the care the horses are receiving damage their legal case?

    Apparently MHS doesn't think talking to someone who's allegedly just a fundraising observer about their expenses is a problem. Why can't they release that information publically?

    Why is Marin acting so secretively? I looked at their website yesterday, and could not even open a blurb about the seizure. DMK is being polite, but why are posters so certain about MHS's skills in handling equine cruelty and neglect?

    If this were a seizure of less desirable horses, posters would be demanding photos and a steady stream of updates. Remember when Days End seized those Arabians in Maryland, or other high profile cases? They were expected to update their website daily. Pursuing a legal case doesn't require a complete information blackout. MHS could provide public information (not just to special people) about the horses they have, without saying anything about their plans for the rest.

    This is not passing the smell test. The horses may be in bad condition, but the information flow is suspicious.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  9. #3729
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    BINGO! To Dead Lame and DMK.
    There has been zero information released about the condition of the horses from a group that is now the beneficiary of a significant chunk of money. It seems like the real condition of the horses is being hidden, but why? Is it because their condition does not warrant this much care, and if that information got out the donation-train would stop?
    Something is definitely fishy here.
    All that has been stated here is hearsay, speculation, and rumor about horses that were seized. WHY were they seized? Are they sick? Dying? sick with communicable diseases? Thin? There are lots of reasons I could see horses stuck in a top-level (high-priced) veterinary facility for this length of time, but it's shady that not one iota of the condition of the horses has been mentioned.
    If they are somewhere on the 1-2 on the Henneke scale, I could see them being in intensive care and in slings, which can get ungodly expensive--but nothing is being said, and it doesn't seem quite right that only a few horses would be that bad off while the rest were ok to leave behind un-monitored.
    Lest anybody think I'm defending the scumbag, I'm not. I'm just questioning the fund-raising for the seizure of horses with zero information available about the beneficiaries.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  10. #3730

    Default Auction Updates

    Auction Items Closing This Evening, Wed Jan 16 2013:
    (Note that auction closes at time indicated or approximately 5 minutes after last bid)

    21:10:00 EST 2 Doses Frozen semen for the KWPN stallion, Boleem
    21:25:00 EST 1 breeding to the Oldenburg stallion, Diamond Stud
    21:40:00 EST 1 Breeding to Holsteiner stallion, Lagoheidor
    21:55:00 EST 1 Breeding to KWPN stallion, Richard
    22:10:00 EST 3 Doses of frozen semen (Good for 1 pregnancy) from German Riding Pony stallion, Belafonte d'Avalon
    22:25:00 EST 1 breeding to the Oldenburg stallion, Checkmate

    Tally to Date/Time of Posting

    Date Total
    Winning
    Bids
    Payments Received to Date
    (Google Checkout, PayPal or other payment commissions not deducted)
    January 10, 2013 $2,119.00 $970
    January 11, 2013 $1,775.00 $240
    January 12, 2013 $1,805.00 $745
    January 13, 2013 $1,755.00 $990
    January 14, 2013 $2,980.00 $1,730
    January 15, 2013 $1,290.00 $540
    TOTALS: $11,724.00 $5,215


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #3731
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    Mar. 11, 2005
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    Perhaps MHS is being secretive because they quickly picked up on/learned just how manipulative JB can be. She is known to weave a pretty story that a lot of people can easily believe. And she still has a few people on her side (a few with LOADS of money) who are more than willing to stand by her while she makes the case that MHS is harassing her. Her attorney is one of them, and Ms. Weems stated flat out that the writ entered to the court requested not only for return of the horses, but an order for MHS to leave her alone.
    That alone would be enough for me to be secretive and protect my investigation. I have to speculate those involved with this one feel the same. And perhaps the prosecution is working to keep those testifying against JB/GFF safe, too? I don't know, obviously, but it would make sense.
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #3732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    Perhaps MHS is being secretive because they quickly picked up on/learned just how manipulative JB can be. ... Ms. Weems stated flat out that the writ entered to the court requested not only for return of the horses, but an order for MHS to leave her alone.
    That is par for the course in large seizure and high profile cases. The rare case is someone immediately agreeing to sign over the animals. Again, compare this situation to the Days End seizure of all those Arabians a year or two ago. Pictures, press releases, angry owner with a lawyer claiming harrassment... DEFHR knows how to handle big cases properly, although unfortunately they did not prevail in that one.

    Of course, every time someone posts any questions here, it's followed by a post encouraging everyone to bid, bid, bid and breed, breed, breed!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #3733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Lame View Post
    DEFHR knows how to handle big cases properly, although unfortunately they did not prevail in that one.
    Perhaps this sentence is why.

    Honest question: how far reaching into the Arab industry was this breeder? Did they have open judgements against them? How many clients were stiffed, sold misrepresented stock, denied breeding certificates, threatened with lawsuits, etc.? I really don't know the dirty details of that case...
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #3734
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    Great post DMK! Nice to hear a practical tone in all of this. I appreciated hearing about the different programs offered at UC Davis, and how it could relate to the seized horses.

    Too bad some posters couldn't read for comprehension


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #3735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Lame View Post
    post encouraging everyone to bid, bid, bid and breed, breed, breed!
    Who said irony is dead?

    Agree with Dead Lame - regardless of whether the case has merit, it is still being handled much differently from what most of us on COTH has seen in the past.

    And the bit about JB having friends standing beside her with loads of money... where is there any proof of that? It's just something that has been repeated often enough to make it seem true. (ETA - seriously? you bought up the fact that her attorney is standing up for her? Did you type that with a straight face?)

    What I see is a lot more people who have been screwed enough over the years to finally speak up. That as much as anything has damaged her reputation, and her ability to sell her horses over the last year (and what is no doubt a big old box full of mental issues)... not surprisingly, probably has a direct impact on her ability to buy food and provide adequate shelter for her horses (or decent housing for herself). If she had so many friends with so much money bailing her out, I doubt it would have come to this pass.

    Now do I believe she is still selling horses? I haven't a clue, but if she cares about their welfare (what with these friends not sending food to her), that seems like a smart business move and the right thing to do by the horses. It's also the legal thing for her to do (assuming she dos not engage in any of the behaviors that bought her to this pass).
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #3736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    Perhaps this sentence is why.

    Honest question: how far reaching into the Arab industry was this breeder? Did they have open judgements against them? How many clients were stiffed, sold misrepresented stock, denied breeding certificates, threatened with lawsuits, etc.? I really don't know the dirty details of that case...
    No animal control agency will win all the time, and Days End usually does prevail. The Arabians were owned by a high profile breeder, but the situation as I understood was primarily neglect and lack of food. I believe Days End lost in part because of where the case was tried - a relatively rural, conservative county where "property rights" are considered more sacred and animal welfare groups looked at skeptically. Also, the horses weren't skinny enough in the eyes of some. There were plenty of COTH posters arguing that the seizure was unfair in that case. Days End lost a lot of money on that case. No auction for you, Days End!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #3737
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    I believe some of the above mentioned case was not won was due to an "illegal" seizure, and Dr. Hennekes written "testimony" *cough cough*.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #3738
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    I think some of you mistake how things work. Rescues do not have the authority to sieze horses, nor do they have the power to go after people (at least not here in CA). They're in the business of caring for horses. State, Federal, and Local Agencies do the siezing, follow through with court action, and follow the laws that are written. When and if they have sucessfully taken away the animals, they can THEN turn them over to rescues.
    Any rescue, in the middle of a lawsuit(s) would be shooting themselves in the foot to air "alleged" wrongs, before a court of law has found them to be true.

    MHS has the facilities and associated vet experts to care for a certain amount of horses, on premises. Just because they show cats and dogs, primarily, on the website, doesn't mean that's all they do.

    Before berating the place, how about getting as much information as possible (this means, if you're such a sceptic, ask an equine lawyer, call the MHS and ask what their facilities can do); get REAL facts, not just speculations on an internet forum. Otherwise, to me, it sounds as though you're trying to deflate the positive energy going toward raising money to help pay for this mess.
    Just my opinion.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  19. #3739
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    Thanks for the answer! I really did not know. Each case can have similarities and differences, but I didn't follow that one and really didn't (don't) know the details. Sometimes life just gets in the way and other things fall aside.

    I should go look it up...

    thank you! Really, I do appreciate the responses!
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique



  20. #3740
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    Who's berating the place? Saying that the majority of the work they do is with small animals is not berating.

    And yes, REAL facts are better than speculation.

    Which pretty much negates about 80% of the blather on this thread.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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