[eagle74]

I don't see anything here about a case being won,.

And for someone who is not a horse person and who supposedly would then have no knowledge of this board, what a huge coincidence that you happened to find the particular breeder referred to in this article. Not that that lawsuit does not imply some sort of karmic justice...but it is just one huge, fat coincidence that you happened to find it. Being a non-horse person and all.

Sketcher, you must have missed the original post by rate Rate My Horse Pro mentionimg that posters should review this case. ( http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/equine...ngs-loses.aspx ). If you notice the title of the article, the breeder loses!
The articlel I posted was in regards to the complaint and was simply found googling the horse breeders name ( found here on the article mentioned above ) as I was interested in the crux of the case and what was alledged.

No conspirancies here!!!!!

[stoicfish]

Stoicfish...I am not sure how easy it is to follow this thread ...god knows it is lenghthy! BUT
1. People have foals from JB stallions.
2. People who have bred to JB stallions have had ...some...spectacular mares...which is what breeding is or should be all about!
3. Same people and others have had difficulty registering their offspring...as unclear WHAT registry the stallion (s) actually in?
4. JB is ..well...a crook
5. Her being a crook has nothing to do with those honest mare owners.
6. But her being a wacko has a lot to do with the whole breeding industry here in the US...I leave out Canada
7. And she has shown herself to be nasty...

Breed to the honest NA breeders with ...dare I say...more talented stallions than JB has !

I have read the thread and have my opinions. But the point of my post was with the below person berating Laurie for not having her filly tested. Now, it may be a good idea, as even Laurie pointed out but it is her decision. She is within the guidelines of her registry to not have the test done. And while JB's practices MAY increase the chances of a mis breeding, the fact is many, many Warmbloods have that chance. There is mistakes made at the vet clinics, during the collections and so on. Until all the registries demand dna correlation to the parents, theses mistakes will continue to be made. There are some famous stallions that had questionable parentage. With ET and IA, I bet the rate of error would be surprising if all horses were tested. Maybe part of the reason why most registries are dragging thier heels. So, to make the reference that all responsible breeders guarantee the parentage, is not acurate. And in this case, it is Laurie's choice and non of our business unless we are buying the filly or her offspring. I think Laurie's been in the business for a while and can make her own very informed decisions.

Originally Posted by scierra

Not at all. But with such a nice filly I would think you would want to cross your Ts and dot the Is. JBs breeding business is just one huge SNAFU and you have seen the posts about questionable papers.

It's just that any reputable breeder I've been around want to know. You seem to think that since you had a good experience (albeit a little issue that resolved) JB wouldn't or didn't do you wrong. You have the filly of your dreams, she is beautiful. You are happy with her, but due to the questions brought up on this thread, and one or two others, the sire might or might not be who you wanted. A simple DNA test would prove bloodlines. If you ever sell the filly or a foal from her don't you think that would be important for future owners?
But it isn't important to you so carry on.

Now back to the subject of the thread.....

[Kwill]

It's an interesting dilemma, to DNA test or not, especially when there isn't a problem.

My guess is there have been plenty of instances in the horse world where papers have been switched, substituted, and the like, deliberately and by mistake. In fact, isn't that why TBs are tattooed? So careless handling of semen doesn't seem impossible.

Anyway, I agree it's Laurie's decision and unless it is super obvious it's not an offspring of the stallion (impossible color, for instance -- just because the horse is tall doesn't mean anything) then there seems no reason to do it unless it's a broodmare, in which case I think I would just for posterity.

It's a shame that the parentage would be called into question this way due to someone's business practices -- just another fallout of being a shady business person.

[rodawn]

I was contacted by this law enforcement official in Canada who then sent me this email and asked me to post it for him under my user name. I have two Canadians that have already come forward to send me their proof of fraud claims, but if there are any others, please PM me and I will give you this mans contact information.

"I am happy to assist as your point man in Canada. I have worked in law enforcement here for 25 years and will admit that like the experience of many of the American complainants, many Canadian police departments would write off individual complaints as a civil matter, something very onerous to pursue considering the distances involved. Multiple complainants, as you suggest, then make a case for fraud. The individual complaints can be conjoined at a single court. If your complainants wish to contact me I can inform them of the process and possible outcomes, I won't tie up thread space explaining the Canadian judicial process.

I had a 'duty to report' to CFIA, our version of USDA, when I read on the thread about the suspect USDA certificates at our border. To bring semen from the US for one of my Canadian mares cost me $275 for the USDA CEM certificate and $75 for my import permit. I would like to think that for $350 one would receive a genuine certificate. They may all be verified at the border by Customs, they may be accepted at face value, or verified randomly, I don't know. My own (not from JB) was verified by the Customs inspector with the USDA so I think it would be a very risky chance to submit fakes, if in fact it was done at all.

To protect my family and horses I cannot post this from my own username on COTH, please have your Canadian complainants contact me at the email I provided you with and we will go from there."

I'd be very careful with this - there is a serious error in this message. The top police authorities in Canada are the RCMP - Royal Canadian Mounted
Police which are the national police force. They are the only ones who would deal with fraud cases, which is what this situation would be.

If a Canadian wants to register a Fraud Claim, they should contact the RCMP Fraud Unit.

[J-Lu]

Well, it happens with good vets as well as shady repro people. I know of a case which was an honest mistake - semen of two stallions was put into the wrong females. It was discovered first by the odd coloration patterns of the foals, and DNA testing proved the vet screwed up. This is a very knowledgeable repro vet who just made a mistake. It happens.

This has been an extremely informative thread. Disturbing, but informative.

[ise@ssl]

I see someone posted that a Dr. Steve Wood is her Veterinarian. HAS HE SEEN THE PHOTOGRAPHS? Perhaps someone in the Petaluma area could provide him with the link and ask him if he feels this is acceptable protocol for processing semen for distribution...noting one of the stallions is EVA positive.

[Equine Reproduction]

I'd be very careful with this - there is a serious error in this message. The top police authorities in Canada are the RCMP - Royal Canadian Mounted Police which are the national police force. The RCMP work closely with CSIS on security measures, who by the way are Secret Service, much like your CIA, NOT your USDA. CSIS stands for: Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

This type of case would have NO interest for CSIS. They are security, counter-terrorist and intelligence...

Why do I know this? Because I have family members working in BOTH services.

If a Canadian wants to register a Fraud Claim, they should contact the RCMP Fraud Unit.

<smile>...no...she's spot on in what she's posting. The CFIA (Canadian Food Inspection Agency) "is" the Canadian equivalent of US the USDA. What they are discussing is that in order to ship semen to Canada, it MUST be certified by USDA and that is subsequently verified by CFIA when it hits the border. If any fraudulent paperwork accompanies the semen that is shipped, it becomes, I believe, a Federal offense here nad probably something similar in Canada.

Good Job, equinedriver!

[rodawn]

Yes, I re-read and rubbed my bleary eyes... and GAHAHHHH


So I edited.

Still, there are errors.

These complaints are FRAUD and only the RCMP deals with fraud. As I noted in my now correct post.

If someone brought it to the attention of the CFIA they would just refer the case to the RCMP who would do the investigation.

<sigh> dang bleary eyes... I'm coming off a 90-hour work week. I should be in BED...

[skydy]

I was contacted by this law enforcement official in Canada who then sent me this email and asked me to post it for him under my user name. I have two Canadians that have already come forward to send me their proof of fraud claims, but if there are any others, please PM me and I will give you this mans contact information.

"I am happy to assist as your point man in Canada. I have worked in law enforcement here for 25 years and will admit that like the experience of many of the American complainants, many Canadian police departments would write off individual complaints as a civil matter, something very onerous to pursue considering the distances involved. Multiple complainants, as you suggest, then make a case for fraud. The individual complaints can be conjoined at a single court. If your complainants wish to contact me I can inform them of the process and possible outcomes, I won't tie up thread space explaining the Canadian judicial process.

I had a 'duty to report' to CFIA, our version of USDA, when I read on the thread about the suspect USDA certificates at our border. To bring semen from the US for one of my Canadian mares cost me $275 for the USDA CEM certificate and $75 for my import permit. I would like to think that for $350 one would receive a genuine certificate. They may all be verified at the border by Customs, they may be accepted at face value, or verified randomly, I don't know. My own (not from JB) was verified by the Customs inspector with the USDA so I think it would be a very risky chance to submit fakes, if in fact it was done at all.

To protect my family and horses I cannot post this from my own username on COTH, please have your Canadian complainants contact me at the email I provided you with and we will go from there."

Oh my !
It's good that the information is being disseminated, but what a nightmare for so many people.
The equine health implications are worrying..

rodawn, go to sleep, wake up, re-read! The CFIA will now be looking more closely at the paperwork submitted by GFF.

[rodawn]

To bring semen from the US for one of my Canadian mares cost me $275 for the USDA CEM certificate and $75 for my import permit.

Import certificates for SEMEN are NOT $75.

Importation of semen is a Class 1 permit. They are $30 for single use and $60 for multiple use.

I would like to think that for $350 one would receive a genuine certificate. They may all be verified at the border by Customs, they may be accepted at face value, or verified randomly, I don't know. My own (not from JB) was verified by the Customs inspector with the USDA so I think it would be a very risky chance to submit fakes, if in fact it was done at all.

ALL imports are inspected by the authorized CFIA Veterinarian. They verify the paperwork, they verify the contents of the shipper. Whether the semen is coming from Europe or the United States, the CFIA Vet is one who verifies and clears (or denies) the shipment.

To protect my family and horses I cannot post this from my own username on COTH, please have your Canadian complainants contact me at the email I provided you with and we will go from there."

Sorry, my naturally suspicious nature. This is very convenient.

Again, I state, if a Canadian has a complaint, they should go directly to the RCMP FRAUD UNIT. They liaise quite readily with other agencies within Canada.They also liaise quite readily with the various agencies within the United States.

I should add, EquineDriver, I'm not harping against you. I just am a wee bit suspicious about this person who has contacted you as someone who truly has worked in law enforcement would have simply told Canadians to go to the RCMP in the first place.

[Lynnwood]

No surprise, Brandon Gibson is still looking for her.

The Raach's as well

Karen Glover-Raach posted toJill Burnell
August 4
is your phone not working???? jay and I have called you honestly 50 times and left messages and no word? We still need bill of sale on Rapture......

So those were the last two professionals who both defended her on the thread about Rap's stolen filly. So who is she working with now ? Would be nice if they would add themselves to the list of those she's done wrong.

[Equine Reproduction]

Yes, I re-read and rubbed my bleary eyes... and GAHAHHHH


So I edited.

Still, there are errors.

These complaints are FRAUD and only the RCMP deals with fraud. As I noted in my now correct post.

If someone brought it to the attention of the CFIA they would just refer the case to the RCMP who would do the investigation.

<sigh> dang bleary eyes... I'm coming off a 90-hour work week. I should be in BED...

<smile>..yeah...they are dealing in two different things. One would be contractual fraud between the mare owner and Jill Burnell. If she knowingly took their money and had little or no intention of fulfilling her contractual obligation, that's fraud and that would be dealt with by RCMP. If however, she somehow sent fake documentation, or false documents verifying the semen as having been USDA certified, that would be investigated by CFIA and subsequently turned over to RCMP, I believe you will find. So, essentially two different directions. I suspect that you will find that if indeed false documentation was accompanying any of the shipments, they will aggressively pursue that. For VERY obvious reasons...it's a breech and could result in catastrophic implications and obviously, consequences for any stallion owner that chose to play games with two big government agencies.

[COTHalter44]

The Raach's as well



So those were the last two professionals who both defended her on the thread about Rap's stolen filly. So who is she working with now ? Would be nice if they would add themselves to the list of those she's done wrong.

Another pro looking for papers on her foal. She was mentioned a few pages back.

Pansy Brandt Winters
Still need my papers on my Baby Jill. Please advise on what I need to do to help get that done!!
Like · · Thursday, August 23 at 6:24am near Crestone, CO

Stephanie Cooper Treadaway likes this.
Shannon DeBuiser So sorry you're having trouble with this
Thursday, August 23 at 11:53am · LikeReply
Alli Lee You are not going to get papers unfortunately, check the GFF thread on COTH.
Friday, August 24 at 10:28am · LikeReply
Pansy Brandt Winters Actually yes I am. Called Oldenburg NA all they need is hair for DNA. Everything else is in order. :-)
Friday, August 24 at 11:59am via mobile · Like · 3Reply
Pansy Brandt Winters Actually I am wrong. He will be registered as a Belgium Warmblood. He was not presented in the 2011 Oldenburg inspections tho I am not sure why. Anyway. He will have papers.
Friday, August 24 at 6:39pm via mobile · Like · 1Reply

[Equine Reproduction]

Import certificates for SEMEN are NOT $75.

Importation of semen is a Class 1 permit. They are $30 for single use and $60 for multiple use.

Okay Rodawn, I suspect that everyone is talking the same language but on opposite sides of the border. Import permits for Canada vs. Zoosanitary certificate and USDA certification from the U.S. USDA permits are actually $79.00 now. In order to ship semen into Canada, the importer must have an import permit. But in order for someone in the U.S. to get it across the border, it must be accompanied by the CFIA import permit AND the USDA endorsed Zoosanitary Certificate.

ALL imports are inspected by the authorized CFIA Veterinarian. They verify the paperwork, they verify the contents of the shipper. Whether the semen is coming from Europe or the United States, the CFIA Vet is one who verifies and clears (or denies) the shipment.

Yes. And on the US side of things, USDA checks the Zoosanitary certificate that MUST be signed by a licensed veterinarian, if cooled semen, collected the day of the shipment, declared to have appropriate antibiotics in it, etc. So, essentially when it gets to the Canadian border, the CFIA vet is looking to verify that all of that was done.

I should add, EquineDriver, I'm not harping against you. I just am a wee bit suspicious about this person who has contacted you as someone who truly has worked in law enforcement would have simply told Canadians to go to the RCMP in the first place.

<grin>..I'm not! They are doing exactly what makes REALLY good sense! If falsified paperwork has been filed, that'll get someone in a big hot legal mess. They would have to back track a bit. Contacting the California USDA office and they can verify if indeed the original Zoosanitary Certificate was signed off by a veterinarian or if a signature was forged or falsified. The dudes on both sides of the border tend to frown on that kind of stuff . Impressive!

[Samotis]

I was looking up premium foals today from Old/NA and there were quite a few Redwine foals. (from 2011)

So she does pays some people!

It's hard to say if she really has 30 mares in foal, or 15 plus for sale or really anything because she has not been honest about anything.

What is sad is she continues to threaten people.

If she just did the right thing, paid her dues and cared for the horses properly then she wouldn't be in this mess.

What I don't understand is how did other trainers continue to show Redwine after she had public problems with not paying John French? Wasn't Peter Pletcher riding the horse for a while after John? Wonder if he got paid.

I know a friend that went to her farm years ago to look at a colt and she wanted to take a couple x rays and she would not let them use their vet, only hers. My friend thought that was strange and ended up not getting the colt. She also noticed the semen shipment containers in the house where they really shouldn't have been.

Guess that was just the start of the issues.

I hope this gets resolved and the horses stay safe.

[Samotis]

If she actually gets 20k for her yearlings (the ones for sale on her site are 14 to 20 thousand!) then she should be able to pay her debts quite quickly!

20k for a yearling, wow.

[Mardi]

and that's if the yearling really exists !

[Jos]

ALL imports are inspected by the authorized CFIA Veterinarian. They verify the paperwork, they verify the contents of the shipper. Whether the semen is coming from Europe or the United States, the CFIA Vet is one who verifies and clears (or denies) the shipment.

Just a little adjustment to the above here...

Actually, the majority of equine semen shipments from the US to Canada are cleared by CBSA personnel (Canada Border Services Agency - formerly "Canada Customs"), not the CFIA vets. Furthemore, CBSA are strictly directed to not open the packaging as a matter of routine. It is typically only if there are apparent problems with the shipment (e.g. no accompanying, or something incorrect with the paperwork, or something suspicious with the container) that it is referred to CFIA.

Having said that, the shipment may be inspected and cleared by the CFIA vet, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that the majority never see a vet, just the CBSA inspector.

This is from the CFIA-AIRS import requirement for equine semen from OK, USA to Canada:

Recommendations to CBSA/Documentation and Registration Requirements

Refer to CFIA-ISC (must be accompanied by the following documents\registrations):
Import Permit
Zoosanitary Export Certificate for Semen

--OR--

CBSA Inspection (must be accompanied by the following documents\registrations):
Import Permit
Zoosanitary Export Certificate for Semen

Furthermore it notes:

INSTRUCTIONS FOR CBSA

***PLEASE NOTE THAT NONE OF THE SEMEN CONTAINERS MUST BE OPENED. NO PHYSICAL INSPECTION TO BE DONE, ONLY DOCUMENTATION REVIEW.***

(and by the way that's a "sic" quote - "none of the semen containers..." - must have been translated from a French original version! )

Note that this does not apply to equine semen imported from other countries such as Europe, which must be inspected by CFIA.

For further details you can review the current regulations on the CFIA-AIRS page. Start the search with "semen equine" - without the inverted commas, and worded in that order - and "drill down" from there.

Having personally worked with CBSA, I can assure you that they have a very highly developed targeting system for potential contraband, so although CFIA is not automatically involved in the inspection of equine semen from the US, you had better believe that if equine semen makes the CBSA list for "high risk" imports, it's quite possibly going to end up requiring CFIA inspection and result in an increased risk of delays of shipments! So that's another reason to make sure that everyone in the industry that is shipping semen to Canada is doing so legitimately!!!

[DownYonder]

Jos, just curious - does the Zoosanitary Export Certificate ask for the EVA status of the semen?

[equinedriver]

FYI, I got a private message from a lister who is a prosecutor that agrees with Equine Reproduction that the Canadian law enforcement person is dead on, as is my assessment of developing a criminal case for fraud.

LETS TRY AND STAY FOCUSED ON TAKING ACTION THAT WILL ACTUALLY RESULT IN A CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR FROM JILL............

And the most likely thing to do that is the threat or reality of criminal charges.