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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 27, 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
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    374

    Default Pricing Question

    Not sure where to post this, but since I'm looking at this horse as an eventing prospect....

    So I really liked this CANTER horse and he was scooped up fairly quickly. Out of curiosity I did a google search for him and found out a dressage/jumping trainer had purchased him as a resale horse. He's just been sitting for the last month or so, maybe some ground work done, but no retraining yet.

    I have no clue what he was priced at when he was listed with CANTER because the trainer didn't have a price listed, but I believe the minimum claiming price was $4,000. The trainer is asking $5,000 (or make an offer). I really like this horse, but for that price I could find a horse with some experience jumping and at the very least well into his retraining.

    This horse has the temperament I'm looking for, and from videos he seems to have the movement.

    I live in Wisconsin, so it will cost me anywhere from $850 - $1000 to ship him. What would be a good price to offer this trainer. I was kinda hoping not to spend more that $2,500 on him.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 17, 2004
    Location
    Rixeyville, VA
    Posts
    6,685

    Default

    You can always make an offer, but given your budget, I would be surprised if the trainer would accept it. But you never know.
    Where Norwegian Fjords Rule
    http://www.ironwood-farm.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 27, 2011
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    374

    Default

    It's not so much my budget, but that I can't convince myself to spend more than that for a horse that hasn't even started his retraining (basically straight off the track).

    My current horse, which my mother will either take over or will become a resale project, was $3,000. He needed some tuning up, but could easily go into the western pleasure ring in another month or so and do very well (not my cup of tea, but what he was originally trained for). He's quiet, well built, has a great mind and gaits, but more importantly he has had training and still remembers it.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2012
    Posts
    74

    Default

    I've been horse shopping for many months and have seen a variety of prices, some are a great deal with a few months of re-training asking 4k and others with little to no re-training for more than that. All you can do is make an offer, if they don't accept it (and you aren't willing to pay more) then keep looking, not much more you can do than that. There are always more ottbs in need of homes Good luck!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2011
    Posts
    66

    Default

    So you want to offer $2500 for a young prospect. This is after dressage/jumper trainer has taken his/her time to pick out a horse that she/he feels will excel as a sport horse, probably has invested money into PPE and xrays, has given the horse some let down time to adjust to non-track life, has probably had it's feet and teeth done and thrown feed at him because most racehorses will drop weight significantly when they leave the track. Even if the trainer only paid $1000 for this prospect, after all that you think they'd be willing to take half of their asking price, making this whole endeavour worth their time?!?!

    People should realize that buying from an inbetween dealer and not directly from the track is probably going to cost more, but you are buying the assurance that someone has picked out a good prospect and weeded it out from the rest of the "has beens" at the racetrack. Just because it hasn't done a lot of re-training under saddle doesn't mean it hasnt had anything invested into it.

    If you want to take the gamble of buying directly off the track, go for it, go scoop one up quickly, because yes, the good ones will get picked out fast by the people who have the eye to find them. But don't make a lowball offer on a prospect that someone has taken the time to choose and invest in. Snatch him up for the $5k now before that asking price doubles after the trainer has put 6 months into him and has made him a nice riding horse.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2004
    Posts
    2,661

    Default

    I can't tell if you are looking to offer the trainer 2500 or 2500 less shipping, but honestly there is some value-add that people will pay for, to having a horse with a trainer. Buyers can try them the standard way (ride, visit, etc.), they can see what they are like with any drugs worn off and in a non-track barn atmosphere, it's easier to set up a sport horse vetting, etc.

    If those things aren't worth much to you, maybe you should try to find your next great deal at the track, and get there fast next time. If this is a horse you are particularly interested in, you can offer what you think is fair, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is too low for the trainer.

    There are a lot of wonderful OTTBs on CANTER, so if this one doesn't work out you will find a great one.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 20, 2009
    Location
    Raeford, North Carolina
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    2,957

    Default

    He's just been sitting for the last month or so, maybe some ground work done, but no retraining yet.
    Exactly what you would want him to do for the first month

    I have no clue what he was priced at when he was listed with CANTER because the trainer didn't have a price listed...The trainer is asking $5,000 (or make an offer)
    Then why the googly eyes?

    This horse has the temperament I'm looking for, and from videos he seems to have the movement.
    So make an offer!

    Not to be snarky, but your OP sounded a little snide in that you felt that the person that put the thought, time, and resources into acquiring this horse should not be looking to make a profit from their efforts.

    One of the luxuries of buying after they have left the track is the exact thing you mentioned first, let down time is done and drugs are out of the system.

    If you really like this horse call the trainer, let them know, and see if you can agree on a price. If not, keep looking at the CANTER sites. Always so many great ones to keep the mind busy
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2005
    Location
    PA
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    12,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sempiternal View Post

    I have no clue what he was priced at when he was listed with CANTER because the trainer didn't have a price listed, but I believe the minimum claiming price was $4,000. The trainer is asking $5,000 (or make an offer). I really like this horse, but for that price I could find a horse with some experience jumping and at the very least well into his retraining.

    This horse has the temperament I'm looking for, and from videos he seems to have the movement.

    I live in Wisconsin, so it will cost me anywhere from $850 - $1000 to ship him. What would be a good price to offer this trainer. I was kinda hoping not to spend more that $2,500 on him.


    Well...this horse seems out of your price range of 2500. You snooze you loose buying off the track. That doesn't mean the people that move fast and get the horse should sell it to you for less.

    I price horses based on what I'm willing to sell them at....not based on what I paid for them etc. This trainer has decided that they will part with this prospect for 5K at this time. It doesn't matter one little bit what they paid for him--or what he was priced at 30 days ago. Honestly...in 3 months he may very well be priced at 15K.

    If you think you can find a better horse for you at a better price, then you keep looking. If you want this particular horse...you make an offer. But an offer of half the selling price is not likely to be accepted.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2009
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    4,162

    Default

    The new owner already has gas,shipping, phone calls, their time, as others mentioned farrier, dental,feed, professioanl assessment of the horse and possibley some flat or over fence schooling.
    Not all horses go right out into a field.

    Put it back on you..if you had bought the horse for $1k taken him home liked the mind way of going look of jump and horse was progressing or thriving you surely wouldn't part with him for less.

    You didn't jump on him and now you would like to buy him where you have an opportunity to actually try the horse but not reward the buyer finacially for their expertise...



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2003
    Location
    Middleburg, VA
    Posts
    13,254

    Default

    I agree with, well, everyone.

    When I've had fresh off the track horses, or horses I've gotten for a steal, the first price they are offered at often is 5k...no matter what. Covers the expense of finding them, vetting them, feeding them, sorting them out, and if we sell them very quickly for 5k, we'll actually make a nice little profit (because, you know, it's better to make a little money than LOSE money). The longer we have them, the less margin for the profit, even as we raise their price to match their experience.

    You want a horse at a low ball price, be quicker at the track. Otherwise, make an offer and see what they say.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Then there is the expense of putting themselves in a position where they can snap up a horse the minute it becomes available.... They have spent years and $$ acquiring the expertise necessary to select good prospects with minimal information, developing their business to where they can drop everything and go pick it up (cash in the bank, quick access to truck and trailer, flexible scheduling, someone who can cover for them while they are gone if they don't live right by the track), etc.....

    Jennifer



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2004
    Posts
    3,356

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdCharm View Post
    Then there is the expense of putting themselves in a position where they can snap up a horse the minute it becomes available.... They have spent years and $$ acquiring the expertise necessary to select good prospects with minimal information, developing their business to where they can drop everything and go pick it up (cash in the bank, quick access to truck and trailer, flexible scheduling, someone who can cover for them while they are gone if they don't live right by the track), etc.....

    Jennifer
    Not to speak of the mistakes they paid to learn from along the way!
    About the only time losing is more fun than winning is when you're fighting temptation.
    -- Tom Wilson, actor & comedian



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2010
    Posts
    815

    Default

    There will be those that seem reasonable to you, and some not. One day, I saw a horse that I knew had been off the track for.... one day, sold at the track for $500, and the person selling the horse wanted ... $5000

    It just happened I called about the horse the day the horse was sold from the track, spoke to trainer. The next day I was scheduled to go look at some horses, and lo and behold there was this horse in the barn.

    Then you have some who put 30-90 days in wtc, maybe hack out and xc school, who are looking at $3500.

    You just never know. Not to say that a horse off the track for a few weeks, or a month isn't worth $5000 for all the reasons everyone has stated.

    But in the case I mentioned above, it was literally one day. The person showing the horses did not know that I had spoken to the trainer the day before, and I had no idea this person bought the horse. Total coincidence, but it sort of gave me a bad taste in my mouth.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 23, 2004
    Location
    Camden, De
    Posts
    3,630

    Default

    Love the responses on this thread. There are sane people out there who understand why ottb's are priced higher than when they left the track. Love it!



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2010
    Posts
    815

    Default This

    Quote Originally Posted by Jleegriffith View Post
    Love the responses on this thread. There are sane people out there who understand why ottb's are priced higher than when they left the track. Love it!
    Some are just more reasonable than others.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2005
    Location
    PA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redalter View Post
    There will be those that seem reasonable to you, and some not. One day, I saw a horse that I knew had been off the track for.... one day, sold at the track for $500, and the person selling the horse wanted ... $5000

    .

    Again...so they got a deal at the track and you didn't. The fact that the trainer at the track was willing to sell the horse for $500 doesn't mean the current owner needs to sell him for that. Sounds like they got a nice horse...one that THEY are willing to sell for $5000. They very well may have been willing to pay more for him to the trainer at the track...but didn't have too....doesn't mean they are obligated to sell him to you for what they paid for him (or even just a little more).
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 3, 2008
    Posts
    1,118

    Default

    The flip side to all this advice that you are getting from the OTTB resellers on this thread is that it's still a horse for sale. The seller has published the price she'd like. You as a buyer are not bound to pay it without negotiation. You don't know what the reseller paid for the horse off the track. You could offer her $2500 or $3000 and with only a month into the horse, she could still be making a profit. Make an offer, all she can do is say no.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2010
    Posts
    815

    Default A matter of perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Again...so they got a deal at the track and you didn't. The fact that the trainer at the track was willing to sell the horse for $500 doesn't mean the current owner needs to sell him for that. Sounds like they got a nice horse...one that THEY are willing to sell for $5000. They very well may have been willing to pay more for him to the trainer at the track...but didn't have too....doesn't mean they are obligated to sell him to you for what they paid for him (or even just a little more).
    In this case, my point was that the markup happened to be huge for 24 hours. Other than time to pick the horse up and less than one day worth of grain and hay, nothing was put into the horse.
    I wasn't expecting the horse to be priced at $1000, but, well, $5000 seemed a bit much.

    Oh, and the horse was too footsore to be ridden.

    After having ottbs all my life, I have nothing but respect and admiration for those that retrain. The risk is all theirs. And I completely agree that relief of the risk - being able to ride the horse, see it go, and maybe it has some let down time and retraining, is definitely worth paying for.

    I still feel that markup was steep for a 24 hour turn. The horse was nice, but not THAT nice



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    35,283

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redalter View Post
    There will be those that seem reasonable to you, and some not. One day, I saw a horse that I knew had been off the track for.... one day, sold at the track for $500, and the person selling the horse wanted ... $5000
    The person who bought the horse for $500 accepted the risk that the horse will not be saleable ATANY PRICE, due to soundness or temperament/behavior issues that don't show up until you get home.

    The person that bought the horse for $500 has also invested time and money, going to the track and looking at multiple horses,and deciding which to buy, as well as paying for vetting and shipping.

    When you buy a horse from someone like that, you are paying for their EXPERISE and their "eye" for picking out prospects that will "work" for a second career.

    If you have a better eye than they do, go to the track yorself.

    If you are going to benefit from their "eye" for picking a horse, you should expect to pay for that expertise.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 10, 2007
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    too far from the barn
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    Default

    I have always bought my OTTBs from resellers. Because I board, I can still usually do better than turning them out myself if needed for that few months. I know that many resellers (as YB said) just put a price of somewhere around $5000 on all their resale projects as the first asking price. It is easier than constantly updating the price over the first couple months of training. While I am willing to pay for the horses I buy, I always ask if there is room for negotiation and often (especially when buying horses quite recently off the track) have gotten them for less than the published price. Having bought and sold enough, don't forget that the selling price of any one horse is potentially balancing out the many failed vet checks, horses that have to be kept for long periods and maybe given away or put down, horses that need expensive vet care, etc etc for every horse that is successfully sold.
    OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!



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