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  1. #41
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    What's up with Harbour Pilot?

    I just looked up his 2012 results and they have been less than sterling at Advanced.

    Absolute Liberty hasn't done anything that shows up in the USEF Results since she withdrew at Rolex.

    Those are two horses that one hoped, after the Pan Ams, would become successful International horses at Advanced. But so far they haven't.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  2. #42
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    Ok so Boekelo is on this weekend...

    Here are the results after Dressage:

    http://janssen.sportcg.net/2012/boek...erboard01.html

    Nice to see Clark doing so well.

    Will be interesting to see how the course rides.

    Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  3. #43
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    What is it about US eventing and dressage? Our top rider is 25th, then the next two are 40 and 41, followed by 60th and a tie for 72nd. If dressage is all important for setting up the rest of the competition, the American team should pack up tonight.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  4. #44
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    Makes you wonder if Mike Pollard is on to a good idea. Giving up your grants in favor of staying stateside in favor of allowing the US to keep the money if you know you're not ready.


    But hey.... lessons may still come on xc or stadium.

    Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  5. #45
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    OK so XC results are in....

    http://janssen.sportcg.net/2012/boek...erboard01.html

    Atlas and PD were eliminated on XC

    Loughan Glen and Clark had a stop and time in 67th

    Downtown Harrison and Jon (Bromont CCI*** winners in June) are in 53rd after adding 14.8 time

    Cambalda and Jennie (coming back from an injury to "Ping" last year) are in 49th after adding 10 time faults

    Clark and Universe are in 32nd after adding 7.6 time faults. This horse is the highest place American and I believe, though feel free to correct me, the only one who paid his own way to get here and isn't there on grant money.


    ~Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  6. #46
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    so, what does everyone think now after cc?
    www.camaloufarms.com

    ride it like you stole it! "ralph hill"



  7. #47
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    USEF wasted a bunch of money sending these horses to an International competition. JMO.

    From my number crunching, no horse has the possibility of a decent (top ten or fifteen) finish in International competition if they don't have a dressage score that is 69% or above. USEF would have done much better to have used the money and brought Bettina Hoy in and sent her to the riders for one day's training. Again, JMO.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  8. #48
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    Jon won Bromont so what else is he going to prove in the USA? Coming top 10 at Fair Hill is hardly stretching him or making him realise what else he needs to do in order to be the best.

    The same riders clear up time and time again in the USA and soon Clayton Fredericks will not be able to believe his luck with the dressage scores he is capable of. It was only last year that Boyd won Fair Hill on a horse who had been out of top level for 3 years and there last run at FEI level was a retirement at 4* level. Hardly audacious competition.

    Everyone keeps moaning about the cost but Sinead has not done too badly out of her yearly trips abroad and it all started with a distinctly average showing at Boekelo coming 21st and finishing on a 69 in 2010.

    If you look at the Brits results they are also distinctly mediocre as a lot of these are first time 3* horses. They are there to get experience not to win. Next season they will be expected to step up to the plate. It was only last year that Quimbo ridden by Andrew Nicholson was eliminated at Blenheim and now he is lying in 2nd.

    In fact looking back to Boekelo 2010 -

    Tiana was 2nd (since 2nd and Blenheim and though had an Olympics to forget will be back.)
    Will Faudree was 12th on Andromaque - next year will be her year IMO.
    Sinead was 21st
    Doug on Running Order was well down the list.
    It was in the same competition that High Kingdom ridden by Zara Phillips was eliminated - he has not done too badly since!
    Other horses there - Opgun Louvo (Olympic team gold and ind bronze) Landvision (Badminton winner) River of Joy (top placings 3*), Leopin (4* winner), Wega (Olympic medal), Treason (multiple placings and thought of very highly in UK), Lanfranco TSF (well placed at Blenheim), WFP on Lionheart was 34th!

    The quality is immense and all the above have gone on from Boekelo. It is very useful to pitch yourself against some of the best horses in the world. I also think its better to come 21st against that sort of quality than come 2nd to a horse who has been retired from top level and came back to win and whose last time out scored a 52 in Luhmuhlen when the winner was on 32 (who was also at Boekelo in 2010 and came 7th!!)

    Eventing is about the long game. Phillip Dutton and Karen O Connor tried the quick route and it did not work.
    The only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    Makes you wonder if Mike Pollard is on to a good idea. Giving up your grants in favor of staying stateside in favor of allowing the US to keep the money if you know you're not ready.


    But hey.... lessons may still come on xc or stadium.

    Emily
    This. Only lessons xc were disappointing.
    Owner of ATA and Verband-Approved Trakehner stallion, Tzigane *Pb*, breeder of ATA-approved Semper Fidelis

    www.twingates.com



  10. #50
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    why were lessons on cc disappointing? jon and jeanie both went clean with time, not too shabby i feel. and clark had one stop on glen and also clean with time on universe
    www.camaloufarms.com

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  11. #51
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    Let's just say it cost a minimum of 25k per horse to send them to Boekelo for a "run and done" trip to Europe. We sent horses who, as evidenced by results, were nowhere near ready for that level of competition. IMO, the money could have been more wisely used, since it's a chunk of cash that the USEF doesn't have. It's not as if we don't know already how pitiful International US eventing has become.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  12. #52
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    Maybe I'm just not "getting it" but how does spending tons of money to send unprepared horses and riders overseas benefit anybody? All I ever hear is people saying that we need to get more riders overseas. If we could get more riders TRAINING overseas with the people that consistently beat us that would be great. But I don't understand how competing overseas and doing poorly helps at all.

    Why waste all of that time and money to compete overseas when we can be at home, training and preparing more. I understand that we are judged less harshly here, specifically in dressage, but even if these riders are getting good scores, shouldn't they know that their dressage work is not up to par? Just because you score in the low 40s in a USA FEI event doesn't mean your work is great quality, and I feel like the riders and coaches should recognize that. I'm sure we have all had a dressage test where we were scored a little better than we thought we should have been. Why can't the upper level riders realize this?

    I may be way off here but I just don't see a benefit in wasting money sending these riders overseas to get creamed by the competition.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

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  13. #53
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    We need to get them exposed, to stiffer competition, stiffer courses, the horses use to air travel, etc. etc. we cant expect Jon Holling to do nothing the next two years and then maon at WEG when we dont win. We cant have it both ways, moaning we arent sending people for exposure, we arent winning medals.....it was a dissapointing day....in dressage....but I think we need to address that as a different thing....and until we quit forcing horses into frames, and we go forward and p into frame, well......the writting is on the wall.
    May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
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  14. #54
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    I think these grants are use it or lose it so I understand why they send a team because they're competition grants not training grants. I don't know who would have the authority to redirect the money to training.

    I do think that it's not all about the dressage and there is some value in practicing xc and stadium over championship type courses abroad with all the atmosphere. As far as our riders being unprepared for the dressage, Jennie in particular is actually a very good dressage rider and has shown herself capable of scoring with the leaders in Europe in the past. xC has been the bogey on international trips. So maybe this extra practice will bear team fruit in the future.



  15. #55
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    For not a lot more than these 25K grants, a horse and rider can spend 8 months riding/training/competing with the best in EU.

    Of course, they would have to work off the rest of the costs by riding the BNR's horses and mucking, and sweeping, and help the kids with their English homework, and even some gardening/leaf raking/jump building, and be a server at the parties.... and discover that a day at the competition is considered a "day off" by the BNR and the work still needs to get done when you return to the barn at night!

    And you ride the naughty ones along with the not so naughty ones, get bitten, kicked, bucked with, struck in the head, sleep in the lorrie, eat when you get a chance, get rained on for days on end.

    But, they get to school Luhmuhlen, Sarehendorf, and Nindorf every week, and on multiple horses, compete with the best of the best every week, and watch the best of the best everyday! Experience a work ethic where the BNR has only taken one half day off in 8 months because he "has things that need improvment in his riding".



  16. #56
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    Boekelo is the finale of this year's FEI Eventing Nations' Cup series, which is new this year as an FEI International Competition. So when the USEF sends a team, they are sending a Team. In that circumstance, ie Team, not team, doesn't the USEF normally pick up the cost of the competition? If this is like showjumping's Nations Cup competitions, does the USEF make a big production of individual grants to show jumpers and expect those grants to pay Team costs?

    I think that we should simply not send any horse over the ocean for competition that doesn't consistently get a 69% dressage score here--even if US scoring is 'soft'. And if that means nobody goes anywhere until the scores get up, so be it.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  17. #57
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    Viney, that sounds a lot like Anne Gribbons " why bother if you can't win" philosophy. With respect to these team- like competitions, I see an inherent value in trying, in competing to the best of your ability within a team setting, against other nations, at the three star level. I see it as being particularly valuable now that the Pan Ams are a two star. If we sit around waiting until we can field 4 riders are regularly scoring 70 percent or better on their current mounts, we will have missed an awful lot of opportunities to improve and gain valuable xc and sj experience in international competition. We're having trouble in all three phases. In fact I would argue that an over focus on the gap in dressage is leading to the failures in the other phases.

    I do think these team competitions are more important than the individual grants so if we're looking to reallocate foreign travel money, I'd look at the individual grants, not the Boekelo team grants.



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxxtrot View Post
    why were lessons on cc disappointing? jon and jeanie both went clean with time, not too shabby i feel. and clark had one stop on glen and also clean with time on universe
    Going clear is obviously task #1 but if we are to have a chance of medaling in the next WEG or Olympics we must raise the expected standards re: time pens. I'll take back earlier comment on Jennie's xc b/c she did move up the leader board but was starting so well down the order that only a double clear would have moved her significantly & Jon's time moved him down.

    Compare this with Ingrid (both horses), Dirk, Andreas Ostholt, Bettina, Beeke Jankowski, Benjamin Winter, Sandra Auffarth, Elmar Lesch and o/c Michael Jung - who more often than not ends on his (amazing) dressage scores & the difference between winning Olympic gold and going clean with time is starkly contrasted.

    Performance standards have changed in all phases and US riders are not keeping up.
    Owner of ATA and Verband-Approved Trakehner stallion, Tzigane *Pb*, breeder of ATA-approved Semper Fidelis

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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuppysmom View Post
    For not a lot more than these 25K grants, a horse and rider can spend 8 months riding/training/competing with the best in EU.

    Of course, they would have to work off the rest of the costs by riding the BNR's horses and mucking, and sweeping, and help the kids with their English homework, and even some gardening/leaf raking/jump building, and be a server at the parties.... and discover that a day at the competition is considered a "day off" by the BNR and the work still needs to get done when you return to the barn at night!

    And you ride the naughty ones along with the not so naughty ones, get bitten, kicked, bucked with, struck in the head, sleep in the lorrie, eat when you get a chance, get rained on for days on end.

    But, they get to school Luhmuhlen, Sarehendorf, and Nindorf every week, and on multiple horses, compete with the best of the best every week, and watch the best of the best everyday! Experience a work ethic where the BNR has only taken one half day off in 8 months because he "has things that need improvment in his riding".
    ******* THIS ******.

    And for clarification, the BNR who has taken 1/2 day in 8 mo's b/c he "has things that need improvement in his riding" is 2008 Individual Gold medalist, Andreas Dibowski.
    Owner of ATA and Verband-Approved Trakehner stallion, Tzigane *Pb*, breeder of ATA-approved Semper Fidelis

    www.twingates.com



  20. #60
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    I don't think this weekend was a bad showing. Was it competitive? No. But as someone said, we have to compete against the best to be the best. Clearly, staying at home and beating ourselves hasn't really done much. You can do all the homework you want, but you need a real test to see where you are and how to improve. "Take home tests" don't have the same effect.

    I don't want to argue too much about time penalties on xc-- yes, perhaps they could have gone faster, but it seems like the ground was deep and muddy. Sometimes accepting a few time penalties is good horsemanship to get your horse home clear and sound. Even the great Andrew Nicholson didn't make time (and how often does THAT happen?!).

    Show jumping today-- Clark had one rail with each horse. The USEF fb page called one of them an "unlucky rail" and noted that fence 2 was coming down a lot. There aren't many clear rounds. Jon Holling jumped well, and had one time fault. Jennie had two rails. All together, it seems about par for the course. Yes, I'd prefer that they all jump clean...but none of them went in and had a many-rail disaster. I'd bet that many horses are tired after the heavy going yesterday.


    I think we *do* need more US riders who spend time training in Europe. It did Sinead and Allison a world of good this summer. It would be great if we could budget some funding for that. But it's not just as easy as it sounds-- these riders leave their families and business behind for several months. Someone else has to teach their students, feed the horses at home, ride the youngsters. There's still bills at home to pay, in addition to bills overseas. It requires a strong support group, and a good source of funds to make it happen. I agree that it NEEDS to be done...but it's not so easy as "Hop a plane with your horse and go train with WFP."
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~



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