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  1. #1
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    Default Refusal question in stadium

    The CT I was at yesterday was run by HJ people with an HJ course designer and judge due to a shortage of eventer volunteers. Some adjustments were made because originally my course had a two stride to a one stride.

    I was on my green mare doing my stadium round, trotting a crossrails course. When I brought her over to the rail to make a turn she spooked at a bush and stopped to stare at it. I got her going again and she did her course without any stops.

    I ended up with 4 points for a refusal because stopping forward motion anywhere on course was considered a refusal even if it wasn't related to a fence.

    Is that a rule? I've had it happen before but I've never had it come up as a refusal unless it was related to a fence so maybe other judges have been lenient with green horses? I'm pleased with her performance and I wasn't in it for a ribbon but for miles but I'd like to know for future use.



  2. #2
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    Default I think it is...

    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    The CT I was at yesterday was run by HJ people with an HJ course designer and judge due to a shortage of eventer volunteers. Some adjustments were made because originally my course had a two stride to a one stride.

    I was on my green mare doing my stadium round, trotting a crossrails course. When I brought her over to the rail to make a turn she spooked at a bush and stopped to stare at it. I got her going again and she did her course without any stops.

    I ended up with 4 points for a refusal because stopping forward motion anywhere on course was considered a refusal even if it wasn't related to a fence.

    Is that a rule? I've had it happen before but I've never had it come up as a refusal unless it was related to a fence so maybe other judges have been lenient with green horses? I'm pleased with her performance and I wasn't in it for a ribbon but for miles but I'd like to know for future use.
    But then I have been out of the game for some time, so do not hold me to it. I seem to recall stopping of forward motion, either on CC or in stadium as a fault. I am sure someone will come along who knows.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2007
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    25

    Default

    Yes. THat is considered a refusal.



  4. #4
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    Nov. 16, 2000
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    Default

    Yes, SJ has some odd rules about stopping. You can be E"d for "willful delay" which is stopping for more than 45 seconds, and you can get penalties for a stop if you circle anywhere on course between fences (that isn't part of the line of the course) But if you do have a stop? You can circle as many times as you want as part of your re-approach as long as you get over the fence within 45 seconds. (**I know this rule b/c it was mis-applied to me at a schooling trial this spring. I had a stop, and had to circle to re-approach because of the placement of the fence and the rail (could not have reapproached without 'crossing my tracks') and was assessed a second stop. So I read the rule book.)



  5. #5
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    Sep. 24, 2010
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    Area 1, Connecticut
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    Default

    Yes it is a refusal in stadium, I don't think it would be in xc but don't hold me to that. I've seen people on runaway horses xc flat out stop dead for a few seconds and not be penalized.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.



  6. #6
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    Feb. 11, 2009
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    Default

    I just had a friend go from 1st to 3rd in stadium because she got lost on course and circled to find her way. She was assessed 4 faults even though a fence was not associated with the circle. Boy was she mad at herself!! LOL! Had a lovely clear round otherwise.

    So, once you start your stadium round, continue on the proper track without stopping!!



  7. #7
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Default

    Thanks guys, I'm a bad rider on green horses so I've had the stop, snort at thing, continue on quite a few times and never had it count as 4 faults so I must have had some lenient judges at my schooling shows. I'll be more aware of it next time!

    Here's the video with my refusal. In all its ugly glory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWchN...1&feature=plcp
    Last edited by enjoytheride; Oct. 14, 2012 at 04:05 PM.



  8. #8
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    Mar. 6, 2005
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    Default

    How nice of her to spook right in front of the camera so we could get a good look!
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  9. #9
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    Default

    humm.....I wouldn't have given you a stop. You were still moving, didn't really cross your tracks.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  10. #10
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    Mar. 5, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilary View Post
    Yes, SJ has some odd rules about stopping. You can be E"d for "willful delay" which is stopping for more than 45 seconds, and you can get penalties for a stop if you circle anywhere on course between fences (that isn't part of the line of the course) But if you do have a stop? You can circle as many times as you want as part of your re-approach as long as you get over the fence within 45 seconds. (**I know this rule b/c it was mis-applied to me at a schooling trial this spring. I had a stop, and had to circle to re-approach because of the placement of the fence and the rail (could not have reapproached without 'crossing my tracks') and was assessed a second stop. So I read the rule book.)
    nonsense. no such '45 second rule'



  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    humm.....I wouldn't have given you a stop. You were still moving, didn't really cross your tracks.
    You might not have given a fault but anybody who can read the rule book certainly would have.

    'Still moving' means nothing.

    "It is a Resistance when the Horse refuses to go forward, makes a halt for any reason, makes one (1) or several more or less regular or complete half turns, rears or steps back for whatever reason"

    So to make it clear, the horse was not going forward. It had turned away from the jump. 'Cross your tracks' does not apply either.

    I just love it when 'eventers' make it up as they go. Classic.



  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    You might not have given a fault but anybody who can read the rule book certainly would have.

    'Still moving' means nothing.

    "It is a Resistance when the Horse refuses to go forward, makes a halt for any reason, makes one (1) or several more or less regular or complete half turns, rears or steps back for whatever reason"

    So to make it clear, the horse was not going forward. It had turned away from the jump. 'Cross your tracks' does not apply either.

    I just love it when 'eventers' make it up as they go. Classic.
    Never heard that applied to a spook no where near the fence. Spook of the fence....yes...but coming off the tracks before you have presented to the fence....no.

    In the video the horse continued to move forward...albeit slowly....and clearly had not presented yet to the fence.

    I think that was a very grey call....especially at a schooling show of crossrails.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    nonsense. no such '45 second rule'
    Malarky - there are 3.... who's the one 'making up rules'??


    EV154: Eliminations :

    2c: taking more than 45 seconds to jump the first obstacle after the time of the round has started

    2 d: a horse resisting for 45 consecutive seconds during the round.

    AND: 2 e taking more than 45 seconds to jump the next obstacle or to jump the last obstacle and cross the finish line.



  14. #14
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    Sep. 24, 2010
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    nonsense. no such '45 second rule'
    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    You might not have given a fault but anybody who can read the rule book certainly would have.

    'Still moving' means nothing.

    "It is a Resistance when the Horse refuses to go forward, makes a halt for any reason, makes one (1) or several more or less regular or complete half turns, rears or steps back for whatever reason"

    So to make it clear, the horse was not going forward. It had turned away from the jump. 'Cross your tracks' does not apply either.

    I just love it when 'eventers' make it up as they go. Classic.
    Um wow okay. Last I knew, there was a 45 second rule, where if your horse was being disobedient or otherwise resisting to go forward for 45 seconds, you would be eliminated.

    Secondly, I agree that I would not have gave that a stop. Horse never stopped moving forward, so NOT technically a 'refusal'. She scooted, she went sideways, she moved slowly but she never stopped and she never crossed her tracks. Plus it is crossrails at a schooling show. I don't know what rulebook you're reading from.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

    Don't believe the hype.



  15. #15
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    Oct. 14, 2012
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    Default

    Something for you to sing yourself to sleep with S A McKee
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urgp...e_gdata_player



  16. #16
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    Default

    I've had a almost refusal before but the horse never stepped back. I was told it doesn't count as a refusal if the horse doesn't take a backwards step. He did stop at the fence for a brief few seconds but a good kick and off we went. So in theory if my horse did stop shouldn't it be a refusal at that jump then? Why would they tell me as long as there are no back steps?
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  17. #17
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    Default

    Nothing like sanctimonious experts quoting parts of the rule book while ignoring others, either. Sheesh.

    I do have to say SJ rules are bloody confusing. I hate judging SJ for that reason!

    On a lighter note, I think Keebler did every possible disobedient thing today in XC warmup . . . I wish someone had a video of his balk/spin/spook/buck/rear/go backwards/bolt routine.
    Click here before you buy.



  18. #18
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Default

    Well, now it's about as clear as mud.



  19. #19
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    Default

    First, remember that the view from the judges booth may be very different from the view from the video camera.

    It seems to me that it could be considered a runout
    "It is a run-out when the horse escapes the control of its competitor and avoids an obstcle, which it has to jump"

    Or a resistance
    "It is a resistance when the horse refuses to go forward, makes a halt for any reason, makes one or several more or less regular or complete half turns, rears, or steps backward for any reason"

    It looked to me as if both "escapes control of the competitor" and "half turn" apply to what I saw on the video.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  20. #20
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    Default

    The reason for the 4 points was explained at the show... I explained it to you. The view from the camera IS different than from the judge's booth... I was there, sitting 3 feet from the judge. You did not go forward, but instead were doing half turns, etc. As already noted, this IS in the rulebook as such and the judge opted to give you the 4 points. But at least this happened during your schooling round and not a truly "judged" round. I'd be happy actually that the judge was watching your round enough to actually make ANY comments so you could learn. I wouldn't have expected that from any judge really.

    SA McKee... really? Was it really necessary to be a jerk?
    ************
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