[Sannois]

Well I thought I would pick your collective brains.
Have a friend who I have taught for some years. She has a Belgian warmblood cross that she has been riding for several years, He is still very green. He has a lovely trot, but his canter is undeveloped. She is a timid rider with a recent weight gain and not a secure seat. As a result she asks for the depart and is not secure in her leg and seat and he trots several strides before he canters, She tenses up draws her leg up and does not follow through with the inside leg. His canter is short and not forward.
I have no problem getting into canter, but he wants to drop his head low. Half halts help and I must drive with my seat. I have been doing trot canter transitions and they seem to help. The bad part is I live 40 miles away and maybe get there once a week. She keeps her horses at home but is not good about riding regularly, ie the problem.
She has a retired horse that is wonderful for getting your leg and seat stronger, but alas, she does not ride enough, plain and simple. Now that long winded explanation, is there a good exercise to help her other than lunge line lessons?
I have told her to throw on her Jumping saddle and just trot in two point.. ?? We are at a stand still now because until she gets more secure she is now confusing her very literal horse.
I would like to do some more improving to his canter.
She has ridden for many years but this horse is a far cry from her old packer, he is talented and a nice mover, but he is becoming lazy and sloppy as a result of her poor seat.
She is a friend, but She will listen to me, I have lectured her about the evils of not riding every day. She maybe rides 2 or three days a week. including a lesson with me. Would just like some ideas.

[Rhiannonjk]

I had a similar problem bringing my youngster along, in that strengthening the horses' balance in the canter requires a secure seat that usually requires riding a different horse that already has a balanced canter. She already has the resources to strengthen her seat (And if she's not willing to put forth that effort, is it really fair to expect the horse to progress?). What I did to get my guy going:
0 - In the very early days, we did canter transitions in two-point. Once we got through the transition, I sat back and asked for balance. Then...
1 - I let a stronger rider work on his canter while I rode her more balanced horse's canter to secure my seat - There may have been times when we did this up to 3 times a week, but really it was more like once a week or less.
2 - Lunging him at the canter
3 - I brought his trot work along, getting that as balanced as possible, and then did lots of (Correct!) sitting trot to continue to develop my strength
I played with walk-canter transitions before we had trot-canter ready, but this was with a horse that was really "On" at the walk and trot. If she's falling apart and panicing with a few bad trot steps, those would probably still be around at the walk-canter, but it might be worth a try, just to see if the rider can go into the transition more calmly.

That being said, in all of this I focused on what I could do to make myself a better rider, and if she isn't doing that, how will this ever improve? I never was ridiculously die-hard about all of this - I just worked at it little by little, and it all started to come together. There are a million other factors, but I feel like I only succeeded because I was very willing to accept that I was part of the problem, and I had to put forth a certain amount of effort to make it all better.

Outside of the barn, I had the best riding progression when I started seriously swimming - with a coach on a masters team. Butterfly will really work your core!

[NOMIOMI1]

If you have a tendency to feel like you need to half seat... Try the opposite!

No really, some of them want you to lean way way WAY back in canter and let them really come from behind.

You dont see a lot of proffesionals doing this on certain rides because they are idiots. Some horse like to have you there some dont. It opens up the hips too in case you dont realize you are gripping in the thigh.

I try to stay light but pelvis forward and soft hands that helps them get away from the shorter canter.

[CHT]

I think two point in her jumping saddle will build the wrong muscles and make keeping the thighs flat and long harder.

Things like Yoga which work on body awareness may help her more.

Is it possible (during lessons) for YOU to ask the horse to canter from the ground, so she can sit and feel the transition while leaving legs long? I am not thinking on the longe and the repetitive circles at canter are not likely to feel secure for your friend by the sounds of the issues.

There is the option of changing your goals for this horse and rider to better suite how hard the rider wants to work. Maybe she would be happy just walk/trot, and you can do the canter work for now?

[Sannois]

I had a similar problem bringing my youngster along, in that strengthening the horses' balance in the canter requires a secure seat that usually requires riding a different horse that already has a balanced canter. She already has the resources to strengthen her seat (And if she's not willing to put forth that effort, is it really fair to expect the horse to progress?). What I did to get my guy going:
0 - In the very early days, we did canter transitions in two-point. Once we got through the transition, I sat back and asked for balance. Then...
1 - I let a stronger rider work on his canter while I rode her more balanced horse's canter to secure my seat - There may have been times when we did this up to 3 times a week, but really it was more like once a week or less.
2 - Lunging him at the canter
3 - I brought his trot work along, getting that as balanced as possible, and then did lots of (Correct!) sitting trot to continue to develop my strength
I played with walk-canter transitions before we had trot-canter ready, but this was with a horse that was really "On" at the walk and trot. If she's falling apart and panicing with a few bad trot steps, those would probably still be around at the walk-canter, but it might be worth a try, just to see if the rider can go into the transition more calmly.

That being said, in all of this I focused on what I could do to make myself a better rider, and if she isn't doing that, how will this ever improve? I never was ridiculously die-hard about all of this - I just worked at it little by little, and it all started to come together. There are a million other factors, but I feel like I only succeeded because I was very willing to accept that I was part of the problem, and I had to put forth a certain amount of effort to make it all better.

Outside of the barn, I had the best riding progression when I started seriously swimming - with a coach on a masters team. Butterfly will really work your core!

You are dead on, I have been attempting to tell her to stay off this greenie and ride the old experienced one. And that is what the drill will be, I will ride the greenie.
I know the way things are it will never change, your scenario is exactly the same, difference is, she is not motivated.
I can only hope if I get her out more with me this will change.
Thank you for that!

[Sannois]

I think two point in her jumping saddle will build the wrong muscles and make keeping the thighs flat and long harder.

Things like Yoga which work on body awareness may help her more.

Is it possible (during lessons) for YOU to ask the horse to canter from the ground, so she can sit and feel the transition while leaving legs long? I am not thinking on the longe and the repetitive circles at canter are not likely to feel secure for your friend by the sounds of the issues.

There is the option of changing your goals for this horse and rider to better suite how hard the rider wants to work. Maybe she would be happy just walk/trot, and you can do the canter work for now?

He is voice trained from lunging, I even tell her to say it but she leans forward... Yes that is a huge problem, and bounces.
He is confused, so until I raise my voice and yell C A N T E R
He trots like mad, bouncing her more, making a bit mess.
And you are right, It is her lack of core strength, she has gotten Very soft in the middle, @ point is not the answer.
I really needed to sling this around and see if I was thinking on the right track, Thank you ladies for your suggestions.
I am off to ride him Tomorrow and slap her on the oldster.
I will let you know how things progress.

[Sannois]

If you have a tendency to feel like you need to half seat... Try the opposite!

No really, some of them want you to lean way way WAY back in canter and let them really come from behind.

You dont see a lot of proffesionals doing this on certain rides because they are idiots. Some horse like to have you there some dont. It opens up the hips too in case you dont realize you are gripping in the thigh.

I try to stay light but pelvis forward and soft hands that helps them get away from the shorter canter.

It makes sense. Will give it a shot! I do believe that he has a nice canter in the works but she has been having all those problems and he is ultra sensitive. I really notice a difference if she has ridden him, he is a bit defensive and short until he realizes it is me and settles into a more relaxed pace.

[lorilu]

wow, this all sounds so familiar!
What worked for me:
Walk-canter transitions. MUCH easier for my PerchX. And, his hesitation before the first canter stride (not like any of my earlier horses, who had a more forward mind) did not toss me forward like it did at the trot. Yes, we worked on the t-C transition later - after the first canter he was more forward thinking.

L

[IrishDeclan]

My guy is a bit unbalanced at the canter still. I find that the more work I do at the walk, the more his canter improves. Perhaps you could teach her some walk exercises to practice on the days that you're not there. Shoulder in, haunches in, leg yielding, collecting and lengthening the walk, etc. It should serve to strengthen the horse and possibly help her to refine her aides.

[RedHorses]

Are your lectures to her on needing to ride more helping? If she is riding 2-3 times a week (once with you) that is more than most people do when they start riding (ie. once a week lessons), and yet those beginner riders can get better with their limited riding. Perhaps she doesn't ride more because she feels the weakness and extra weight in herself, and your lectures may be making her feel bad about not riding because you tell her she can't progress (the "unless you ride more" is going to get lost in the negative).

Could you instead give her specific exercises to work on? A pattern to ride. Then within that pattern have her work on the details (you'd have to work through each in a lesson). You would provide the guidance for exactly what she needs to be aware of when, and how to recognize when she needs to change something, and what to do to make it better, and how to recognize when it's better. This can be simple to start - precision is the key. If you get her to work on precision in all things - placement of transitions, response to aids in transitions, exact track where the horse's feet go, where the horse's nose is pointing, what she needs to concentrate on in her body at a given point in the pattern - all of this sort of detail will help her become better and stronger as a rider even if she only rides 2-3 times a week. The key isn't how much she rides, it's how much attention she pays to her rides. Encourage her to ride for even 20-30 minutes but paying attention to the details. Focus on one or two details a day, not everything. One day she can look for very soft easy transitions where her horse stays easy in the bridle and consistent in his head position. Another day she might look for crisp responsive transitions to lighter and lighter aids even if he pops his head up slightly. One day she might do a complex pattern in one gait and really pay attention to his bend, and precision in the curves, corners and straight lines. Another day she might do a pattern with transitions and really pay attention to where the transitions are and keeping him on track through those transitions. One day maybe she does 20min of lateral work at the trot, then 5 min stretching trot to loosen him up. And so on.

Make it about what she CAN do instead of what she isn't doing. She will see improvements and be encouraged to ride more. Make it about riding productively instead of riding more.

[Corky]

Jump the horse when you ride him. Jumping, even low gymnastic work, helps develop push and drive off the hind end, and might provide exactly the mental 'break' and additional stimulus the horse needs to stay interested. He's probably bored out of his head doing the same thing and going nowhere with it.

I started jumping a clients horse this year for the same reason. Owner might jump him on occassion, and he isn't naturally talented (its a minor miracle the horse comes off the ground at all, he had a flat canter that lacked impulsion) and he LOVES the new challenge and his canter is improving dramatically. When I read his last dressage test with an 8 for canter and the comment 'nicely uphill' I knew it was the right choice in his training. I found it gave this horse new incentive to push himself up and off the ground. It also encouraged me to worry less about his head and even his suppleness and worry more about rhythm and impulsion. You don't have to jump anything substantial, just enough that he has to push off to clear it. Get him trotting gymnastics and they will also build his strength so his canter departs improve. This will help her no doubt.

Another great trick, for the rider's benefit, is to put her on a lunge line, on a thick (western) pad and a vaulting surcingle. She can hold the handles and just sit there, even close the eyes, and let you do all the work to send the horse forward and for transitions. Just let her focus on rhythm, relaxation, and allowing her body to move with the horse and not against him. I find 10-15 minutes like this, then repeat the exercise with a saddle on, to be very helpful in establishing what it 'should' feel like and to develop confidence and muscle memory.

[Sannois]

Jump the horse when you ride him. Jumping, even low gymnastic work, helps develop push and drive off the hind end, and might provide exactly the mental 'break' and additional stimulus the horse needs to stay interested. He's probably bored out of his head doing the same thing and going nowhere with it.

I started jumping a clients horse this year for the same reason. Owner might jump him on occassion, and he isn't naturally talented (its a minor miracle the horse comes off the ground at all, he had a flat canter that lacked impulsion) and he LOVES the new challenge and his canter is improving dramatically. When I read his last dressage test with an 8 for canter and the comment 'nicely uphill' I knew it was the right choice in his training. I found it gave this horse new incentive to push himself up and off the ground. It also encouraged me to worry less about his head and even his suppleness and worry more about rhythm and impulsion. You don't have to jump anything substantial, just enough that he has to push off to clear it. Get him trotting gymnastics and they will also build his strength so his canter departs improve. This will help her no doubt.

Another great trick, for the rider's benefit, is to put her on a lunge line, on a thick (western) pad and a vaulting surcingle. She can hold the handles and just sit there, even close the eyes, and let you do all the work to send the horse forward and for transitions. Just let her focus on rhythm, relaxation, and allowing her body to move with the horse and not against him. I find 10-15 minutes like this, then repeat the exercise with a saddle on, to be very helpful in establishing what it 'should' feel like and to develop confidence and muscle memory.

I have been thinking of jumping him for some time, I have trotted him over small stuff a few winters ago to alleviate boredom in the indoor. But Not for some time. The jumps are hidden away and She never jumps anymore, but me being a former eventer, and not having something to compete, I have been having thoughts of jumping him but had not done so.
Also Love the bareback lunging idea.
Today is another day, She could not ride the past few days and I have been busy. Will for sure report back.

[Sannois]

Well there is lot's of things to work on. Where to begin.
I have been on him 3 times in the last few days, and also lunged him in side reins before the ride. He is lovely at the trot, Balanced and round, The canter is nice as well, picks it right up and keep going. The left is another story. He is resistant to pick it up, must crack the lunge line even after I have given the voice command. He is shorter and wants to break to the trot continually. Under saddle he was not forward, But then she does not ride him forward enough, and I had to encourage with a pop here and there behind the leg. I can't blame any of this on him, he has not been consistently ridden for a long time. He is not accepting the contact well, I need to keep riding him up into my hand, and he has a tendency to get low and behind the bit.
I let her on him tonight just trotting Walk trot transitions.
She is too light in her contact, Always has been, So he sucks back gets behind the bit and behind the leg.
She is riding her other horse, But we have a long way to go, she has asked me to keep riding him, 5 days out of the week.
I am almost starting from scratch. He is lazy and overweight and not in shape.
So Now I must add, that he has also in the past been ridden by her husband, but it has been some time, He is a Team penner and a bit heavy handed. I stopped that a year ago.
He was totally confused between me, him and his owner.
Well, I am going to give it a good 4 weeks to see where we are at, then I am going to try and get my old Dressage trainer to come look at us and see where our basic holes are.
Right now, it is lack of fitness, lack of consistency and really not accepting the contact.
Should I keep her off him for now until I can get him more solid? Any suggestions will be well received. Sorry if this is long winded and confusing.

[ako]

I had a difficult time with trot-canter transitions with my mare for awhile. She can be sensitive and has a lot of movement, so I took awhile to really sit back and push with my seat. It was easier to do walk-canter transitions in the meantime. It helped me get used to a real big girl canter without the messy trot-canter transitions.

[quietann]

wow, this all sounds so familiar!
What worked for me:
Walk-canter transitions. MUCH easier for my PerchX. And, his hesitation before the first canter stride (not like any of my earlier horses, who had a more forward mind) did not toss me forward like it did at the trot. Yes, we worked on the t-C transition later - after the first canter he was more forward thinking.

L

Did the same with my mare, who tended to run into the canter from a trot. She has always had an A-1 walk to canter transition, even though we're struggling at training level. And walk to canter is easier for me, too. Especially when she was rehabbing, when we got to canter work I stayed at walk to canter for a long time! These days (with help from a pro), her trot to canter transitions are almost as good as her walk to canter ones... and as long as she's balanced, she doesn't run into the canter from a trot. But keeping her balanced is all on me, and other than in a show, where I have no choice, I will not ask her to canter from a trot unless *I* have everything right first.

[Sannois]

TRail riding after a small work out, and he was just marching. Lovely and forward Did not canter but did some trotting on the inclines, nice and forward, and Oh my, seeking contact and a nice weight in my hand. I do think he was souring to the ring work and her unclear aides. We are lessoning on her oldster and that is going well. MArching on!
And yes I agree about the canter from the walk, he is fine with that, and I will let her canter him that way for now.

[Sannois]

It surprised me that there are over 11 hundred views and just a few comments. Would have been nice to get some more opinions.

[Corky]

Well I stand by my 'jump the horse' comment above. The horse I started jumping to ease his boredom and to develop his canter, well he just scored not one but THREE 9s on a test today. One at canter, one at trot and one at medium walk. Huzzah! So proud of him, so very very proud and I swear, I never could have gotten him there without totally turning his world upside down. He needed a complete change of routine in order for him to get out of the rut and into the progression he was ready for.

Sometimes I think you need to make a big change to get a big result. You said hacking worked great, so lunging and schooling are just ingraining the same b-o-r-i-n-g stuff into this horse. What about barrel racing or pole bending? Start at trot, add canter, work on the quality of the shapes, not the speed, and you might be pleasantly surprised what you get. Barrel racing is GREAT for working on the use of the outside aids, pushing the horse around the turn rather then pulling them, and pole bending is all leg yields. But the horses totally get into it once they've tried it a few times and it breaks the routine up. I do this with school horses to help keep them from burning out in the long winter months and the kids love it.

[Twigster]

If the work outside is helping you with forward, I would continue in that vein. Seek forward wherever you can get it! I would not hesitate to work on forward and then the canter transitions in a jumping saddle and a light seat. I don't ever want to have to push with my seat, or over-use my aids just to get an ok canter. Working on these things in two-point allows me to keep my body still, without driving, and teach the horse that I expect them to move forward off of a light aid and maintain forward without begging.

Once forward is no longer an issue, then I would transition back to more of a dressage seat, and work on the trot-canter transitions, asking for canter from the lightest aid, and only when the trot is perfect. Using the voice cue here could be very useful the first few times. If he doesn't pick up the canter right away, find that perfect trot, and ask again.