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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2006
    Location
    Malvern, PA
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    52

    Unhappy Foot sore still, any ideas?

    My QH gelding with the underrun heels, thin soles, flat feet and deep central sulcus cleft going up thru his heel bulbs, now has shoes at my vet's recommendation. He had been barefoot and ridden in easyboots for over a year after rehabbing a suspensory ligament injury. Vet blocked him sound with just the heel block, so we think the suspensory is not involved. Vet thought pedal osteitis, and recommended full fitted shoes with rim pads, a week of icing, packing with Magic Cushion or Hawthornes Sole Pac, and firocoxib. Three weeks from getting shoes and doing the other treatments pretty consistently for the first and 2nd week, he is not much better. He feels good on turf, but on macadam has a slight head bob indicating right front pain. So I wonder if this is navicular, rather than some inflammation, and wonder if that would would make him worse on hard footing? Vet says we could maybe find out for about $2800 with an MRI and a bone scan, but maybe couldn't do anything to fix it. Or is the cleft in his heel bulbs causing pain? But the left foot (not the one he seems off on) has the deeper hole; it has no sign nor smell of thrush, but it does appear a bit sensitive to the hoof pick. Here's what the feet looked like 1 week after shoeing.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/3520492...7630792215282/
    Vet suggested trying bar shoes with a frog support pad as the next step. This is a dear delightful horse (when he's not limping) but he's either been rehabbing or off or intermittently off for 15 of the last 20 months I've owned him, so maybe it's time to quit.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    3,836

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    I looks to me that he still has long, run forward heels that are not being adequately addressed. He also has the toe running forward and that will stretch the sole and cause it to become thinner. Why were no radiographs taken? At this point, since your vet apparently hasn't even done rads, I would be leery of spending any money on an MRI or the like. I also see some coronary band displacement that is occurring right above where the heels of the shoe end, and that can be a source of contiuning pain/lameness.
    Last edited by Rick Burten; Aug. 14, 2012 at 09:00 PM.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2009
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    1,779

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    The heels have not yet been adequately trimmed. Not until they GET trimmed down enough will the heel pain issue and sickly frog begin to improve.

    BTW a heel block does not block out pedal osteitis (that the other end of the foot) so I can not understand your vet's assumption about that. Were there radiographs that actually SHOWED Pedal osteitis?
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb. 21, 2009
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    Vet suggested trying bar shoes with a frog support pad as the next step. This is a dear delightful horse (when he's not limping) but he's either been rehabbing or off or intermittently off for 15 of the last 20 months I've owned him, so maybe it's time to quit.
    trim the heels better first. Then you wont even NEED a bar shoe. Besides if you put a bar shoe (particularly an egg bar) on those overgrown heels it will only cause them more distress.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2011
    Location
    Cynthiana KY (~40 min. NE of Lexington)
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    527

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    Well, the professional farriers/blacksmiths/hoof care people have told you about the shoeing job. Even though I only trim my own horses (15 of them), I agree with them wholeheartedly about the trim job on your poor guy.

    As an owner, I wouldn't go to MRI's and bone scans without radiographs of the whole hoof. I also would be treating the deep central sulcus cleft for thrush. I know (from your last thread) that the vet siad there wasn't any thrush there, but he/she also said it was pedal osteitis but sounds like he/she was wrong there too. Before I did anything else (except get him trimmed and shod properly of course!) would be to treat him for thrush. It would be your least expensive way to start ruling things out. If you really don't want to spend money on it, just go buy a big bottle of peroxide at the dollar store and put a dish soap top on it for easy directing of the peroxide into the cental cleft and treat it every day for a week. Def not the best way to treat thrush, but it would be easy, and inexpensive, and if you have improvement after a week, you would then KNOW it was thrush and the improved trim, and could maybe move to a more definitive thrush treatment plan.

    Just my opinion, of course. But you said he blocks sound with just the heel block. That would probably mean the problem is in the heel, and he DOES have splits all the way thru the central sulcus cleft and thru the heel bulbs. Got to be worth a try before you spend all that money.

    Sheila
    Sheila Zeltt
    Chestnut Run Stable & Zeltt Racing Stable
    www.Zeltt.com
    Standing "Tiz Brian" at Stud, 16.1 h bay TB by Tiznow



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2006
    Location
    Malvern, PA
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    Thanks for looking and commenting. I wonder if his toes still look long if his very sloping pasterns are visible--took more shots showing them:http://www.flickr.com/photos/3520492...7631056759354/ tho this is now 3 weeks from shoeing so toes lengthening. I think my farrier may have done the best he could with this conformation.
    Radiographs from 1 year ago (when we feared he has foundered in reacting to vaccinations) did reveal very thin soles. Now, even with shoes, he tries to get to the grassy side of the roadway, so maybe a full pad (not just a rim pad) would make him more comfortable.
    Not sure I understand comment about heel trimming. My trimmer has been saving he doesn't grow heel --the tubules run horizontal, not vertical. What underrun means, maybe.
    Is thrush the only cause of the cleft in the heel?



  7. #7
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    Feb. 5, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rondar View Post
    Not sure I understand comment about heel trimming. My trimmer has been saving he doesn't grow heel --the tubules run horizontal, not vertical. What underrun means, maybe.
    Your horse most certainly grows heel. You need to listen to what Rick & Patty have said. Maybe print it out and take it to your vet & farrier. Or find a new vet and/or farrier who understand hooves better. Best of luck.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Those horizontally running tubules ARE the heel, lots of it, that are being crushed and becoming too horizontal in the process. They should not be running horizontal. They shouldn't be vertical either, but they should be closer to that than to laying down.

    Only by TRIMMING them will they move back and have a hope of growing more vertical
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #9
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    Feb. 1, 2012
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    Vermont
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    I''m not a hoof expert, but this photo makes me cringe:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/3520492...7631056759354/

    It really shows that he does have a heel, its just growing forward instead of being underneath the heel area, where it belongs. The shoe also looks too small.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  10. #10
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    Jun. 9, 2005
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    Unionville, PA
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    If you want to PM me your vet and farrier I might be able to offer some alternatives.
    Delaware Park Canter Volunteer
    http://www.canterusa.org/



  11. #11
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    Mar. 27, 2009
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    Upstate NY
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    Wow. Those are some underrun heels. No wonder he's sore. And yes, your farrier described "underrun" heels when he described the tubules running horizontal. What he didn't confess to is that its his fault they are underrun. He isn't trimming them back, he's just letting them grow horizontal. You need a new farrier, my friend, for your horse's sake.
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  12. #12
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    Mar. 27, 2009
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    Upstate NY
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    Also, the lack of a good heel stresses tendons and ligaments. I wouldn't rule out the idea that those heels caused your horse's tendon problems.
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2008
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    Listen to Rick and Patty. They were a Godsend to me when I was having much the same problem with my horse. Deep central sulcus/under run heels/long toe.
    Because of them, I went to another blacksmith, he took one look at the pics I sent and said..."Do not ride that horse until I can get there." It was that bad. It took him a number of shoeings to get the toe backed up and the heel adjusted, (the central sulcus fixed itself after all the pressures were taken off of fit.),and she's been 100% sound ever since.

    My vet had also told me that the original shoeing job was OK, and we had done x-rays from the ground to the knees to try to identify why she was off, but found nothing. BECAUSE it was the way she was shod.

    It was hard at first for me to understand cutting the heels...They're already under-run and you want to decrease them more? But Rick gave me a lesson on what I should really be looking for, and like I said, it made a huge difference.
    Best of luck!
    NJR
    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.



  14. #14
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    Mar. 27, 2009
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    Upstate NY
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    Good advice.
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  15. #15
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    Feb. 5, 2010
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    Why is it that so many hoof care professionals, vets, owners, etc., have *no idea* where the horse's heel should be? I feel like we need a PSA: The horse's heel should be at the BACK of the hoof!!! I see this so often, and it is such a simple thing that I don't understand how the professionals so often *don't* see it. Definitely seems to be an epidemic.

    OP, I hope you can find some professionals to help you and your horse out!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Location
    NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    Why is it that so many hoof care professionals, vets, owners, etc., have *no idea* where the horse's heel should be? I feel like we need a PSA: The horse's heel should be at the BACK of the hoof!!! I see this so often, and it is such a simple thing that I don't understand how the professionals so often *don't* see it. Definitely seems to be an epidemic.
    This is really incorrect. As the angle of the tubules changes so does the nondistorted back of the heel in relation to the back of the foot.
    Eric Russell CJF



  17. #17
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    Mar. 27, 2009
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    Upstate NY
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    I think what she meant was that where the heel touches the ground should be behind the rest of the hoof, not in the middle of the foot. That horse's heel is slung under to end mid foot. I don't get it either, how hoof professionals allow this and can't see it as a problem with how they trimmed the hoof.
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  18. #18
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    Feb. 5, 2010
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    So, you don't agree that the heels should be @ the back of the hoof?

    As you'll see above, I am agreeing with your colleagues, who also feel that the heels are long/underrunning. I simply pointed out that *many* people, even horse care professionals, can't see this.



  19. #19
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    Nov. 8, 2006
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    NJ
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    So, you don't agree that the heels should be @ the back of the hoof?
    I simply stated a fact. As the tubule angle is lowered the end of the nondistorted heel is further forward.

    As you'll see above, I am agreeing with your colleagues, who also feel that the heels are long/underrunning. I simply pointed out that *many* people, even horse care professionals, can't see this.
    The shoe/rim pad are inside of the wall medially. Laterally the shoe/rim pad aren't reaching the heel.

    I didn't see anywhere the op mentioned heel pain. I did see flat thin soles and lame on hare footing.

    My colleagues would suggest lowering the heels and setting the shoe back.

    Lowering the heel increases the length of the non distorted toe (distance between p3 and end of toe) Unloading the toe increases the load behind it. The toe is a large area and if it can be used for weight bearing it probably should be.
    Eric Russell CJF



  20. #20
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    OP said the horse was sound after a heel block.



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