[jdeboer01]

Need help, fast! I have to decide whether or not to put frozen semen into this mare. She had a good, growing follicle that went to a 5 x 4. Four hours later it has regressed slightly and changed shape. Four hours later, it is now almost a figure-eight, as if the walls caved in and split the follicle. Anyone ever see this? IS this an ovulation, or the start of a hemorrhagic follicle? I don't want to waste an expensive dose of frozen semen on this ovulation if it's NOT an ovulation!

[Bayhawk]

Sounds like to me like a collapsing follicle......i.e. close to ovulation. I don't know what 5x4 means. we deal in mm , i.e. 35 or 42 etc.

[Equine Reproduction]

Need help, fast! I have to decide whether or not to put frozen semen into this mare. She had a good, growing follicle that went to a 5 x 4. Four hours later it has regressed slightly and changed shape. Four hours later, it is now almost a figure-eight, as if the walls caved in and split the follicle. Anyone ever see this? IS this an ovulation, or the start of a hemorrhagic follicle? I don't want to waste an expensive dose of frozen semen on this ovulation if it's NOT an ovulation!

Follicles usually reduce in size before they ovulate. It sounds like she is probably ovulating. AHF images are here: http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/AHF.shtml If you're not totally convinced, wait an hour and check again. If she is indeed ovulating, it will be done by then .

[jdeboer01]

Sounds like to me like a collapsing follicle......i.e. close to ovulation. I don't know what 5x4 means. we deal in mm , i.e. 35 or 42 etc.

I suppose she means 50 x 40.

This may be a stupid question, but do follicles "pop" like a blister, or collapse at ovulation? I'm only going by what my vet is telling me over the phone as to what this follicle looks like. She says that the white line surrounding the follicle doesn't look to have split at all. It looks like it just caved in, and it's now dumbbell shaped. My thought is that since we're seeing only a 2-dimensional look at this follicle, it could have popped out the back where she can't see it. Does that sound possible?

I asked her to check again in 45 mins. I'm thinking I just may have her put the semen in and risk it. I'm sweating bullets, as it's so late in the season....

[jdeboer01]

Follicles usually reduce in size before they ovulate. It sounds like she is probably ovulating. AHF images are here: http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/AHF.shtml If you're not totally convinced, wait an hour and check again. If she is indeed ovulating, it will be done by then .

Thanks Kathy!! That's exactly what I'm doing!!!

[Bayhawk]

I suppose she means 50 x 40.

This may be a stupid question, but do follicles "pop" like a blister, or collapse at ovulation? I'm only going by what my vet is telling me over the phone as to what this follicle looks like. She says that the white line surrounding the follicle doesn't look to have split at all. It looks like it just caved in, and it's now dumbbell shaped. My thought is that since we're seeing only a 2-dimensional look at this follicle, it could have popped out the back where she can't see it. Does that sound possible?

I asked her to check again in 45 mins. I'm thinking I just may have her put the semen in and risk it. I'm sweating bullets, as it's so late in the season....

BREED THE MARE !

[jdeboer01]

BREED THE MARE !

Going for it!!!

[Equine Reproduction]

Sounds like to me like a collapsing follicle......i.e. close to ovulation. I don't know what 5x4 means. we deal in mm , i.e. 35 or 42 etc.

5 cm x 4 cm...some vets/practitioners/technicians use centimeters instead of millimeters and will say 3.5 x 4.5, etc.

[Equine Reproduction]

I suppose she means 50 x 40.

This may be a stupid question, but do follicles "pop" like a blister, or collapse at ovulation?

They implode.

The equine ovary is unique among ovaries in that the only place that the outer surface can rupture is in the indented region called the ovulation fossa (the ovary is kidney-shaped). Consequently, although the outer surface of the ovary will increase in size with the enlargement of the follicle, when ovulation occurs, the follicle actually ruptures internally and a "canal" is formed heading towards the ovulation fossa, where the oocyte will eventually leave the ovary and enter the oviduct.

We have an article entitled "Indications of impending ovulation in the mare" on the website which also has some ultrasound images. In one, you will see the shape change common to the pre-ovulatory follicle, which is often described as a "teardrop shape". The pointed part of the teardrop point towards to ovulation fossa.

Once the follicle has actually started ovulating, it is not uncommon to see "leakage" of follicular fluid - again heading in the general direction of the ovulation fossa - which can manifest almost as a second follicle if the rupture of the follicular wall is not yet large enough to be visible on the ultrasound image, and it is this that your veterinarian may be describing. There is also an image of this effect in the above linked article.

[Donella]

Your vet doesn't know this??

[jdeboer01]

They implode.

Does stop-action photography exist of an equine ovulation -- where someone does a scan of the follicle every 10 mins or so, and then put the pics together? That would be so interesting to see!

I'm guessing that what my vet was seeing is the front side of the follicle that was ovulating from a point she couldn't see. I really can't think of any other explanation. I sure hope my mare catches. She's a Friesian mare I'm breeding to Furstenball.

[Equine Reproduction]

Does stop-action photography exist of an equine ovulation -- where someone does a scan of the follicle every 10 mins or so, and then put the pics together? That would be so interesting to see!

Ginther produced a series of about 8 such photos some years ago. It is however important to remember that some ovulations occur in as little as 20-30 seconds. Several times when dealing with frozen semen and palpating mares regularly, we have had a follicle ovulate in our hand - you can literally feel the follicle collapse.

I'm guessing that what my vet was seeing is the front side of the follicle that was ovulating from a point she couldn't see.

One scans the ovary from all directions (or should). It is easy to get behind the ovary, although most commonly one is scanning from the top. If there is any question as to what is being seen, then scanning from the side and back is (should be) performed.

I added some notes to my post above about the ovulation process as well in case you didn't see that!

[jdeboer01]

Your vet doesn't know this??

My vet has mad ultrasound and frozen semen handling skillz , but she isn't what I would call a "repro-specialist". She mostly lets me make the calls as to what to do -- and I get the vast majority of that info from Kathy's website, and from COTH!

Epliogue -- One hour after the follicle looked like a dumbbell, it was gone. She indeed was in the midst of ovulation. Thanks to Kathy and COTH, my mare has a chance! We're going to flush her in 6 hours, do a bit of oxytocin, and cross our fingers!

By the way, Furstenball semen looks GREAT under the scope!

[Bayhawk]

5 cm x 4 cm...some vets/practitioners/technicians use centimeters instead of millimeters and will say 3.5 x 4.5, etc.

Thanks Kathy.......I've just always heard 40 x 42 for example.

I've had the same vet forever and we always just shorten it. Mares got a 40 ! LOL

[Equine Reproduction]

Thanks Kathy.......I've just always heard 40 x 42 for example.

I've had the same vet forever and we always just shorten it. Mares got a 40 ! LOL

Yeah, you get used to a certain jargon. And some will average the two measurements and give the average.

OP, glad your mare cooperated for you.