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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backstage View Post
    I simply don't think that is a fair comment. The issues in London, in my view, do not fall on David's shoulders. Canada has an incredibly limited base of horses at that level, and limited funds.
    Canadian eventing had a brilliant year in 2010. However, that success has not been replicated in either team or individual results.

    If the Olympics was 'unlucky', then maybe WEG 2010 was 'lucky.' You can't just take luck one way.

    Did DOC build a program in Canada? The depth was lacking when he came in and I'm not sure it's much better now. I certainly don't think eventing as a sport is better off in Canada these days -- not that I'd attribute that to the coach but I'd be surprised to learn there's a healthy pipeline of developing riders in Canada.

    And with the level of dysfunction in Canadian horse sport orgs, I'm not sure there's much any coach could do about the situation.



  2. #22
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    It is not an issue of whether Karen is an asset to the team or not.....it is issue because of how her husband became elected the coach and what was said at that time.

    It is about the "perception" of favoritism that is created by these sort of conflicts...and why most companies and other sport teams have such strict rules...and why you typically avoid such conflicts. Instead

    To me...it is an issue for those riders who would have potential to be on the Teams. Prior to DOC being appointed the coach...they possibly could have expressed those views without as much potential back lash. But now. Would you want to be known as the rider who tells the coach that you don't think his wife should be on the team?....or the member of the selection committee?

    And while DOC may not actually treat her any differently (I don't think he would) or techincally have power over her selection.....the perception will still exist. That is enough for me to think it is better to just avoid this conflict all together.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  3. #23
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    KOC, at age 54, is the OLDEST person on ANY Olympic team. And in 4 years she will be almost 60.




    She doesn't have to stop competing. She just cannot try out for the team.

    Personally, being older than KOC, I think that it must have been really easy for her to say that she would no longer vie for a place on a US team in order for all conflicts of interest to be removed from DOC's candidacy for Chef.

    I think that Karen is absolutely INCREDIBLE to be riding as well and as aggressively as she is. But, I can guarantee you that, in your mid 50's the issue of keeping your body in one piece becomes very important.


    Kudo's to her, for both doing so well at these Olympics and knowing when to step down.

    BTW, has anyone posting on this thread actually asked KOC if she would consider staying in full time training for the next 4 years in order to try out for the team (if not for the conflict of interest)?

    Seems that this thread is a lot of kerfluffle over nothing.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    KOC, at age 54, is the OLDEST person on ANY Olympic team. And in 4 years she will be almost 60.
    She may have been the oldest US athlete (not sure) but she was most definitely not the oldest- she was not even the oldest eventer. Carl B is older and I believe Toddy is too.
    LH- in answer to your question, she is being quoted in the press as saying she no plans to stop competing and the context of the quote makes it sound like she was referring to the Olympics

    If DOC stated in his application for the job that KOC would not be on a team if he got the job (and I believe this was stated), then she should not be on a Team. You can't make that kind of commitment and then renege.

    If they did not make that statement, then she better be better than everybody else if she gets put on the team or the perception of nepotism could create a toxic atmosphere on the team and in the sport.
    There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
    If DOC stated in his application for the job that KOC would not be on a team if he got the job (and I believe this was stated), then she should not be on a Team. You can't make that kind of commitment and then renege.

    If they did not make that statement, then she better be better than everybody else if she gets put on the team or the perception of nepotism could create a toxic atmosphere on the team and in the sport.
    Frankly, I find the whole issue to be confusing. And that is the result of USEF poor communication. I don't think that DOC can sign away KOC's rights to vie for the team. Only KOC can. Did she? I don't know, but I do wish someone would clear it up. Some of the reporting has suggested that she did, but the reports may also have left out the nuance of "if required".



  6. #26
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    Karen should bow out like they assured everyone during the application process. It's too much of a conflict of interest. Even though the Coach is not a selector, the selectors pay a lot of attention to what the coach says by their own admission. And while her performance in London was good, 3 x Karen's score is still not in medal contention so it's not like we're giving up MJ and Sam.

    If I were DOC, I would rather avoid the distraction of (1) the cries of foul when she makes the team over arguably better pairs because she's "KOC" and we "need" her experience vs.
    (2) pressure from KOC when she's not selected in spite of being arguably on par with another rider. That distraction should be eliminated entirely.

    It's time for new blood on the team. She and her horse will both be another 2 years older by WEG. She can still aim for Rolex, Badminton and Burghley until he's ready to retire.

    On a slighly related note, I do think it's also time for some of our older team riders to share the wealth re: owners.

    Given the depth of rider specific ownership pools these folks have, I don't see why the the Rebecca Farm folks bought multiple new horses for KOC and PD because I've always had the impression that Mrs. Broussard was interested in supporting the development of the sport at the highest levels, etc. and not necessarily wedded to particular riders. If older more established riders were preferred, why not buy a horse for Kim? Or for that matter, why not for Allison? We're always told what a whacko Arthur is, well she's gotten him around some awefully big tracks-would love to see what she could do with an easier horse.

    Related to that, why not give Veronica back to Lauren Keiffer to ride to see if they can be team contenders by 2014/2016.

    All that said, given the fact that these folks have never met a conflict of interest that they couldnt' ignore, I expect we'll see KOC on the 2014 WEG team riding Mandiba in spite of a dodgy lead up and be told that of course there was no politics involved in their selection because the selectors are doing "the best that they can".



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    It is not an issue of whether Karen is an asset to the team or not.....it is issue because of how her husband became elected the coach and what was said at that time.
    How did he become elected and what was said?



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatherineC View Post
    Anky's husband Sjef is the coach for the Dutch Olympic Dressage team and she is on the Dutch Olympic team this year. This is a much smaller country and I suspect there is lots of buzz around this situation.
    Yes, and they had to rein him in, no pun intended, when he announced he was going to go train Totilas in Germany...

    Generally the dressage selection process also seems more "numerical" in that rider has to ride @ certain CDI's and produce a certain # of scores. Then here the top however many go to Gladstone and ride in selection trials. The human error factor in the selection process is really limited to the judges, and not someone's spouse, relative or significant other.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Canadian eventing had a brilliant year in 2010. However, that success has not been replicated in either team or individual results.

    If the Olympics was 'unlucky', then maybe WEG 2010 was 'lucky.' You can't just take luck one way.

    Did DOC build a program in Canada? The depth was lacking when he came in and I'm not sure it's much better now. I certainly don't think eventing as a sport is better off in Canada these days -- not that I'd attribute that to the coach but I'd be surprised to learn there's a healthy pipeline of developing riders in Canada.

    And with the level of dysfunction in Canadian horse sport orgs, I'm not sure there's much any coach could do about the situation.
    I happen to disagree regarding "luck". I simply don't believe that you finish 5 riders without a jumping fault based on luck. That sort of performance is the results of hard work, and yes, good coaching. And the failure this weekend wasn't all bad luck, and I don't think I've ever suggested that. There were lots of legitimate issues, but I don't think the lot of them should fall on David. One person is not responsible for the state of Canadian eventing, nor the Team's performance in London. I'm sure there are people willing to lay that blame at his feet, but I think that is a far too simplistic way to view things.

    Speaking of David - what was his job description? Honest question. It was never my understanding that his job was to revolutionize eventing in Canada. In my view, he was on loan to teach our riders new tools, and help build a solid foundation in conjunction with existing resources. I don't want to make it seem like I think David is perfect, he isn't. There was certainly room for improvement, and I think efforts should have been made to try and widen the effect of his coaching. But I also acknowledge that I don't know what the terms of his employment were, and what was feasible. I can virtually guarantee that we did not have the funds to fly him around Canada on the regular to work with developing riders. We don't have that kind of money.

    As for your question regarding the pipeline in Canada. I actually think we have a healthy pipeline from the point of view of the quality of the riders. If your question is more about the quantity,...well, there are certain realities, esp economic ones, about Canadian eventing that are very limiting. And much of that is not something that one person can change.
    Last edited by Backstage; Aug. 1, 2012 at 07:22 PM.



  10. #30
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    Speaking of Team Canada, one of my favorite things about the last few years was the apparent absence of the toxicity, suspicion, distrust, confusion that hovers around the US team. I hope that continues with the next regime and I would hope that it dissipates a bit from the team environment in the US. Everyone involved in the Pan Ams for the US seemed so happy and joyous about the experience and the team and that can't have hurt performance.

    As for their xc troubles, I suspect that the lack of xc run in the lead up to the games due to the weather, combined with dressage bootcamp, may have contributed to some of the troubles that the riders had.

    Also speaking of Team Canada and the pipeline, is Waylon Roberts still eventing? I know that he was working abroad for a while developing his skills, but I haven't seen him in any of the entries in the US this year even where his parents were competing.

    I



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    KOC, at age 54, is the OLDEST person on ANY Olympic team. And in 4 years she will be almost 60.
    LH just a correction.
    Ian Millar is 65 (b.1947) and I believe this is his TENTH Olympics.
    He's even older than we are.
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  12. #32
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    Don't forget the Japanese Dressage rider in his 70's.
    Grab mane and kick on!



  13. #33
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    When the selection process for the new US coach was going on, the conflict of interest issue was addressed directly.

    Karen stated that she would no longer ride for the US team if David was chosen. Similarly, Phillip stated that he would no longer ride on the US team if the Dutton/Costello ticket was chosen.

    The people making this decision were a group that included several recent US team riders, many of whom seem to be positioned to return to the team in the future with the right horse. Thus, I would imagine that the information regarding Karen and Phillip's plans was very relevant to them, and they made their decision in light of those promises.

    To reneg on that statement is disingenuous and unethical. The parties involved just need to stick to the plan they made during the selection process and that is all there is to it. Losing KOC as a team rider may be a downside to having DOC as coach, but that was accepted 2 years ago and saying, "wait, never mind, now that she had a good result in the Olympics we've changed our mind!" shouldn't be a possibility.



  14. #34
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    Ah. I see. Certainly, if it is a promise that she made, she should keep it.

    I don't really understand some of the antipathy toward the O'Connors. David and Sally had some connection to the barn I grew up at in Utah. He bought one of their horses (On a Mission) and David gave frequent clinics there. He rode my horse once and I didn't clean my saddle for months! I had the biggest crush on him. Maybe because he was the first man I had ever seen riding English.



  15. #35
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    If she is good enough for the next Olympics then I don't really care if her husband is the coach. I imagine there will be worse scandals than that by then for us to talk about.



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renascence View Post
    If she is good enough for the next Olympics then I don't really care if her husband is the coach. I imagine there will be worse scandals than that by then for us to talk about.
    I would agree with you if she hadn't stated that if her husband coached then she wouldn't ride for the team.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey



  17. #37
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    Default Dutton/Costello

    What is this about? Was PD in contention for chef? Is there another Dutton? I know i sometimes ask stupid questions, but there is so much to learn!
    Another killer of threads



  18. #38
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    Mayhew, I just sent you a message

    As for this subject? I don't really know...I didn't get to watch and feel it would t be fair to comment appropriately. I DO wish the doors would be more open to newer riders, but it is what it is. And it sounds like she kicked tail with what she was given.
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Oh. I thought it was to avoid horse hair in unusual places
    Good point! All this has given me a great defense against the rare possibility that I may run into a horsey human of the male gender, who wants to date me. I'll just save this thread in my Favorites and say "Look! I don't want THIS, happening to US someday!" He'll be so flabbergasted with my Crazy, he'll run screaming the other way.

    It's a completely brilliant plan!



  20. #40
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    My understanding is that David's candidacy for coach was presented with Karen's statement that she would no longer ride for the team. The Active Riders voted for him with this as a condition. Would he have been selected if she hadn't said this? I certainly have no idea. But I don't see that KOC now gets to pull the old bait-and-switch routine and now try to ride for the team. It changes the conditions of his coaching position and it goes to his credibility. If she wanted to ride for the team she should have been honest and said so and David could have run for the job under those conditions. It's a lousy way to start off his coaching job, "oh sorry we were lying!!"



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