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  1. #1
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    Default No official reserve horse for U.S. Olympic dressage team?

    Did anyone notice on the official list of validated entries for London that the U.S. apparently does NOT have an official reserve horse?

    http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fil...%2014_2012.pdf

    Neither Legolas not Paragon are on the list.



  2. #2
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    Default Wizard

    Wizard is the official reserve horse for the team. I don't think we're allowed another one.



  3. #3
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    Default

    No, Wizard is our Individual entry.
    There is a certain point in the competition where the Individual entry can move up to complete a team if a horse drops out, but they are an entry unto themselves.

    There are no reserve horses for any country on that list.

    Paragon is our reserve horse, Legolas is Steffen's backup horse.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Did anyone notice on the official list of validated entries for London that the U.S. apparently does NOT have an official reserve horse?

    http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fil...%2014_2012.pdf

    Neither Legolas not Paragon are on the list.
    These are the actual entries, i.e. the horses scheduled to compete. No reserves are listed for any team or discipline. The nominated entries were due in early July and did list reserves, including Legolas and Paragon. Wizard is on this list because he IS scheduled to compete, but as an individual rather than as part of our 3-person team.

    ETA: yeah, what yaya said. . And here is a link to the nominated entries so you can see the reserves (though note that it is all in alphabetical order):
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/97681752/O...s-20-June-2012



  5. #5
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    Default

    From what I can tell from reading the fei rules for the Olympics, and I could be wrong, Dressage teams who do not have an individual rider competing do have an official reserve horse listed on the fei list. I.e. Canada. Because the US qualified an individual, that individual takes the place of an official reserve. The jumper teams are allowed one official reserve. Eventing does not have an official reserve.

    After this point, if a horse on the list cannot compete, then substitutions from the nominated entry list are allowed up to a certain point.



  6. #6
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    There are no reserve horses for any country on that list..
    Official reserve horses are indicated on that list by "Y" in the r/h column (the Reserve column). As you can see, there ARE some reserve horses on the list - for instance, Bullwinkle for Australia.

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Paragon is our reserve horse, Legolas is Steffen's backup horse..
    So why aren't they on the list?



  7. #7
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    Default

    We don't have a "reserve" because we have an individual rider competing, ie andrienne Lyle on wizard. If one of the team horses can't go, wizard steps in. For the teams that didn't qualify an individual, they have an official reserve on the fei list.

    At this point, legolas and paragon are reserves for US purposes but they are not official Reserves. What I can't quite figure out from the rules would be if Ravel had to scratch at various points between now and the start of the gp special, what would happen? Is it a) legolas is substituted into the team for ravel, wizard stays as an individual b) wizard takes Ravel's place on the team and legolas becomes the individual or c) wizard takes ravels place on the team and there is no individual.



  8. #8
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    Default

    Oops. Didn't see that right-hand column title because I went to the bottom of the list for the US entries and there were no column titles after the first page.

    I know the US had a rules-snafu before (I think it was 2000) where they sent a reserve horse and rider all the way there only to find out they weren't allowed to have a reserve.

    Scary, but it's looking the same here. The USEF interprets the rules differently from the FEI.

    Here's what the FEI says: (bolding mine)
    In case of a Team Athlete/Horse combination not being able to start in the Grand Prix Team Competition (illness, injury, etc) it is possible up to two (2) hours before the scheduled starting time of the Grand Prix to activate the fourth qualified rider of an NF as a team member instead. In case there is no such fourth qualified rider the respective reserve combination (obligatory participation in Horse inspection) will fill the space of the retired combination. In case of a Team Athlete/Horse combination not being able to start in the Grand Prix Special Team competition, a substitution is not possible. In case of a qualified Athlete/Horse combination not being able to start (for example illness, injury, etc of Athlete and/or Horse), the next Athlete/Horse combination in the respective classification will move up to fill the number of combinations allowed in the Grand Prix Special and Grand Prix Freestyle, up to one hour before the start of the competition

    But here's what USEF says: (bolding mine)
    (ii) for Dressage: Substitution of Team athletes up to two (2) hours before the scheduled starting time of the Grand Prix test. Substitution of Team athletes up to two (2) hours before the draw of the Grand Prix Special test, but only with athletes having participated in the Grand Prix test. Replacement of Individual athletes up to one (1) hour before the start of the Grand Prix Special/Grand Prix Freestyle.

    I think there's a mixup in the interpretation about individuals as well. I think the FEI wording means that the next rider after the number qualified gets bumped up to fill the empty slot (ie the 12th-placed individual rider after the GP, since 11 individuals go on to the Special as well as the top 7 teams), not that the NF can replace the individual rider that has to drop out. USEF seems to think they can replace their individual rider with the reserve.

    Yikes.



  9. #9
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Yaya - your comment is sort of what prompted my original post.

    As you pointed out, the USEF interpretation seems to contradict the FEI interpretation.

    It would appear from the FEI rules that if Steffen, Tina, or Jan cannot start the GP, Adrienne fills their spot on the team. IOW, the score from her GP ride is used to determine the team's overall score and standing going into the GPS that will determine the final team results.

    However, if Steffen, Tina and Jan do the GP but one of them cannot start the GPS, according to FEI, the U.S. is out of the team competition - i.e., Adrienne cannot at that point be considered part of the U.S. Team.

    USEF seems to think that Adrienne *can* be added to the Team for the GPS, even if she did not compete for the Team in the GP.

    Very confusing, and I guess we just hope and pray all our team horses stay sound and healthy all the way through! And ditto for Adrienne and Wizard!



  10. #10
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    Default

    I think that the difference between the usef interpretation and the fei is the result of revisions to the fei document in the June 2012 update. There was a redlined version on the fei website at one point showing the updates. Perhaps the usef document hasn't been updated.



  11. #11
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    Default

    so Paragon stays home?
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SGray View Post
    so Paragon stays home?
    Paragon is in the UK, but I'm pretty sure he won't be shipping to the venue. From the couple of radio interviews I heard, I believe the plan is basically to take him to another (maybe couple of) show for experience.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Paragon is in the UK, but I'm pretty sure he won't be shipping to the venue. From the couple of radio interviews I heard, I believe the plan is basically to take him to another (maybe couple of) show for experience.
    I'm pretty sure that I read an interview of Heather that said basically this. She said something to the effect that once the horses have jogged, and are passed, she is done.



  14. #14
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    Default

    Well, according to Paragon's Facebook, Hickstead is out. It's flooded.

    Was there another show they were going to?



  15. #15
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    Default

    I think Hickstead was the only planned competition before the games- although I'd bet Paragon will divert somewhere else as soon as he is no longer considered an alternate (i.e. as soon as the first horse inspections are complete).



  16. #16
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Well, according to Paragon's Facebook, Hickstead is out. It's flooded.

    Was there another show they were going to?
    Yes Hickstead might have been it, but I thought there was a 'hint' of something else as well. Since they hauled their butts over there one might guess they are going to find some shows to make it somewhat worth the effort.

    And since she isn't actually 'on' the team, I'm wondering if this little field trip isn't out of her pocket also? When last I groomed for someone on a USET team, they reimbursed you afterward (um, if, USET actually had the funds to do
    so....)



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