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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
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    1,379

    Default What bloodlines specifically do you like to see in your TB sporthorse?

    Being a small Thoroughbred sport horse breeding farm, we have been looking more closely into bloodlines for sport in the last couple of years instead of looking only at well-known racing names. I know that there are some lines that are known to excel in jumping and eventing and we have been trying to incorporate some of those lines into our breeding program, but sometimes finding well bred mares for sport horse breeding can be difficult.

    Now, every time we look at a potential broodmare, I want to see something that stands out; for example Roberto, Graustark, and Blenheim.

    I personally like to see Fappiano, even though his sire is Mr. Prospector.

    What lines do other TB sport horse enthusiasts like to see? (Feel free to chime in Vineyridge )

    And another thought - I know that the European, New Zealand and Australian Thoroughbreds are popular with eventers. They really seem sturdier with heavier bone. It would be great if we could get some of those mares into this country to add some sturdier distance blood into the US Thoroughbred gene pool.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2003
    Location
    Paris, KY
    Posts
    637

    Default

    I personally like to see Cox's Ridge up close, preferably through his son Vanlandingham. I havent met a Vanlandingham that I haven't LOVED everything about. Great brains, big boned, big moving horses. But, I'll take Coxs Ridge just about any way I can get it. I know that some people have problems seeing swaps, especially doubled up, the thought being that he's known for tough horses, but I've actually loved having Swaps in the mix, and do not mind having more than one strain of it.

    Buckpasser is another that Alot of sport people lust after. I have mixed feelings about him and his sons/daughters. He sure puts one heck of an athletic horse on the ground, but with the phenomenal jump comes one heck of a buck and I've found they can be buggers to get backed. Once backed, however, they tend to be smart, quick thinking individuals with more jump than you'll ever need, and good form to boot. It's the getting backed part that can be fun.

    I love Turn To, In reality, Graustark, Roberto, Key To The Mint, His Majesty, No Robbery, Saddler Wells. When I can find a horse with what I would call an "old pedigree", up close (first three generations), I'm especially happy as the stallions input on the particular horse is less potent the farther back they are.

    One other note. I do tend to put Alot of stock into the horses tail female family. Most people get hung up on the big name stallions, and forget to look into the female family, and it's traits. I actually prefer seeing a really good mare (la troienne, for example) doubled up somewhere, than seeing three strains of Mr Prospector, or Northern Dancer, or the like.

    Johanna
    Www.duforteventing.com
    "Animals can sometimes take us to a place that we cannot reach ourself"

    ** Support the classic Three Day Event! Ride a Long Format **



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,639

    Default

    Take a look at this pedigree on a 3yo CANTER gelding. It's just about perfect.

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+good+guy

    Tail female is to Sceptre and Maid of The Mist.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Location
    KY, USA
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    Buckpasser and Sir Gaylord, particularly on the dam side. Alydar on either side.

    We like our horses sensitive if not hot and very forward. Not everyone, particularly in a sales situation, likes that combination.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    Sir Ivor (so Sir Gaylord as above) - he is hugely respected in Europe and somehow many of his decedents seem to be similar in type - very athletic !

    my mare is Wolkentanz I x Sir Ivorson (Sir Ivor) and she is amazing!



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2003
    Location
    Paris, KY
    Posts
    637

    Default

    I should add, that one of my biggest concerns is a great brain, with an exceptionally willing, "yes ma'am" attitude. People sometimes assume that an upper level horse has to be a fireball....hot and only had a forward button installed. I would take a professional, no nonsens, "yes ma'am" horse any day. Especially when I'm breeding for the upper levels. I am a professional, but I don't want the pro ride. My breeding program and pedigree preferences reflect this. I absolutely want to like my horses, and enjoy having them in the barn. For me, this means a phenomenal brain is an absolute must to stay in my program. I've yet to find a downfall to a horse with a great brain and a bit less 'go'. But then again, i like a bit of a 'kick on' ride. Don't get me wrong, I want a horse who will take me to the fences, move off my leg, with a killer, ground eating gallop, good paces, scope, and solid form over fences. I just don't want the fire breathing dragon that Alot I people really like riding, and assume will make the best upper level prospects.

    Johanna
    "Animals can sometimes take us to a place that we cannot reach ourself"

    ** Support the classic Three Day Event! Ride a Long Format **



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 1, 2011
    Location
    Mid-MO
    Posts
    267

    Default

    Being a Byerley Turk fan, I look for Ambiorix/Tourbillon etc. Hard to find.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Location
    KY, USA
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    QH - that's the "rideability" in the equation. There's a big difference between "sensitive and forward" and "runaway insane." Megan's favorite horse right now is one that was not well liked at his last location - but she describes him as "the best I've sat on in 6 years."

    Unfortunately, many don't understand the difference. We've had more than one fabulous ride that others had failed on. Reins are not brakes, they're lines of communication.

    And there's a big distinction between "smart" and "dumb." I'm not talking about trainability - our last 2 advanced horses, one was smart and the other dumb. Takes a totally different ride. Both were superb at their job, but with the wrong rider both would have failed.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 1999
    Location
    Just Enough Farm, GA
    Posts
    2,228

    Default

    I'll add Blushing Groom to the mix as one I'm always happy to see.
    If you believe everything you read, better not read. -- Japanese Proverb




  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2003
    Location
    Paris, KY
    Posts
    637

    Default

    Secretariat- I definately get the difference between hot and sensitive, and Crazy runaway. I certainly wasn't implying that the hot and sensitive ones don't make upper level prospects, just that I don't care to ride them. I also make an effort not to breed for hot and sensitive, as those are not traits that *I* want in my horses. I also get that there are some very good horses who would not have succeeded with one rider, but have done amazingly well with another. I have good friends who love the same ride that Megan does, and do exceptionally well on horses I would have passed up. Certainly the top prospects all have to be trainable to an extent, or noone would get very far. For me if comes down to preferring to ride an SUV or Truck over a Ferrari. I like a good looking (but I actually have a soft spot for a big, coarse head), bigger boned (but not heavy), very professional, classic THoroughbred, bred for distance/staying power and for the grass.

    My retired Advanced horse, whom I took to NAYRC CCI** (long format) and medaled with, would all but fall asleep in the start box. I would have to egg him on a bit during he count down, but the minute he was on course, he was quick across the ground, very rideable, and would take me to the fences. He, however, was a bit of a kick on type ride, and wanted to know you were up there, and in control. He thrived on being told what to do, but could still do all of the thinking if I got us into a bad distance, or was on the buckle jumping into a Combination (all of those things that YR's will do). He was agile, and a quick thinker when he needed to be, but had no qualms with mom calling the shots (so long as they were good decisions on my part). Even When he was ** fit, a 5 yr old kid could have bounced around on him all day long. That's the brain I strive for in my breeding program. Above all, nothing rattled him, and he is a complete and utter saint in my book. Just a few weeks after his last advanced (he was double clean xc and SJ and finished 2nd to Courageous Comet), he ran Beginner Novice with one of my friends at her first HT ever, and had time faults (not speeding tickets) on XC.

    I want 30 of him in my barn, please!!

    Here is his pedigree, just an example of what I look for.

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/diamondham

    One of our Broodmares, Gold Coast Kris, who consistantly puts a classic style foal on the ground when bred to a variety of TB stallions.

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/gold+coast+kris

    Also, Secretariat, I really adore the pedigree of Nemos dam, Moonlight Memories. I was actually the under bidder when Megan bought her. I didn't realize it was her bidding until she walked out, having the exact reaction I would have if I had the chance to buy Diamonds dam. She is actually the same tail female family as the mare I posted above.

    Short story long.....And now back to your regularly scheduled post...

    Johanna
    "Animals can sometimes take us to a place that we cannot reach ourself"

    ** Support the classic Three Day Event! Ride a Long Format **



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    12,692

    Default

    What A Pleasure (and his dam Grey Flight)
    his son Foligno is one of my favorites

    Olden Times
    The Axe (and a few others by Mahmoud)
    Sir Gaylord
    Hoist the Flag (really Tom Rolfe)
    Tourbillon
    In Reality
    Herbager (and his son Grey Dawn)
    Mill Reef
    Saddler Wells


    Lots of others too. I tend to like a rangy type but with a powerful hind end.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2000
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,580

    Default

    These names are getting farther and farther back in pedigrees, but I always want to see Nasrullah, Princequillo, Royal Charger, Sir Gaylord, Somethingroyal Umidwar, Turn-to, and look to see more than one cross to them if possible.

    I am very excited about the prospective foal of this young mare

    www.pedigreequery.com/trinity+creek
    who is in foal to A Fine Romance
    www.pedigreequery.com/a+fine+romance
    A FINE ROMANCE - JC Reg Thoroughbred - GOLD Premium CSHA - ISR/OLDNA Approved
    CSHA Brickenden Stallion Award Winner - for Performance offspring.
    Please visit A Fine Romance on FB!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Location
    KY, USA
    Posts
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    Default

    QH - AMEN!! But saints don't come along very often, and the rest of us have to struggle with what we can get.

    Fred - You nailed it - especially the Sir Gaylord on the damside. Looks like a perfect nick for AFR!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Location
    KY, USA
    Posts
    1,934

    Default

    QH - re: Moonlight Memories, it's a small world!! We definitely love her pedigree, and it's a pretty good sign for a Sporthorse dam when their firstborn is an Advanced horse!

    Have you seen the pix of her latest foal? Worked like hell to get him here, but he's simply spectacular - by the DWB Consul. Best foal in my 50 years of breeding, and that's comparing to world class progeny by Windfall, Riverman, Catherston Dazzler, Fleetwater Opposition, Fabuleaux, etc. Those foals are wonderful, but this one seems to have been a special nick - probably end up being a plow horse.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar. 26, 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,097

    Default

    I'll add Crimson Satan
    Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
    Website
    and Facebook page
    Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
    Website and Facebook page



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2011
    Location
    Northern Va
    Posts
    53

    Default

    QHeventer-- how about this one? Another poster liked it but really don't know anything about it. I would love to hear another opinion. Looks like he has some bloodlines for eventing?

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/yoh+zachary



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
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    Blandford, tudor minstrel, wild risk, aureole, blandford, did I mention blandford? Blue Larkspur, Vaila and Padilla, mieuxce, fair play, rose leaves, to market, native dancer, nodouble, double jay, star kingdom, never bend, hawaii, bold bidder, agnes, pretty polly, queenie, Elf, Upas, Ksar, both nimbuses, teddy by the dozens, RAN, Relic, Bonne Cause, spy Song, Count Fleet, Swaps, Best Turn, even some of the No. Ders and Mr Ps--there are lots more, including many more mares, but this will do for a start.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    16,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shrpshooter View Post
    QHeventer-- how about this one? Another poster liked it but really don't know anything about it. I would love to hear another opinion. Looks like he has some bloodlines for eventing?

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/yoh+zachary
    Tail male to Ribot in a 2005?! Holy shit! Don't see that very often--love it!

    I'll let Viney go through this page--I suspect she'll really like it!--but there's nothing not to like about it. Where did you FIND this horse?



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
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    Default

    Oddly enough, it's the same tail female line as the sire's dam in Mr. Good Guy, IIRC. It is. They both branch from Vega daughters.

    Yoh Zachery has a truly wonderful pedigree, except for the tail female line for about eight generations. There really isn't a sterling mare after Frillery.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 14, 2001
    Location
    Lexington, KY--GO BIG BLUE!!
    Posts
    3,249

    Default

    While I love all these old names mentioned, it's getting harder and harder to find them up close. And one thing I remember from a very grueling Genetics class in college is that past the 4th generation, it's so dilute that it probably doesn't matter.

    -Parents 50/50
    -Grandparents each 25%
    -Great Grandparents each 12.5%
    -Great great Grandparents each 6.25%. (Meaning 93.75% of the genetics likely comes from somewhere else.)

    Now, there are prepotent lines, which may trend down a long ways. But seeing one name waaaay back there means very little to me, statistically.


    I'm finding myself studying "current" sires and lines a lot more, trying to pick out trends and the ones who produce what I like. Fortunately, being in Lexington and working on TB farms for a few years let me see a lot.

    Of more recent sires, I like:
    Pleasant Colony-- tend to be long-legged, uphill, big gallopers and above-average movers. Knew one personally who did very well in YEH and evented to intermediate.

    AP Indy-- gosh the good ones are so athletic. The ones I've known had good minds, too. It helps that AP Indy saw a lot of really nice mares, so you're not likely to see many duds. He has quite a few sons at stud, and some are more successful than others, but it's a bit early to tell which exactly will make good sport horses...but I'm optimistic. I have an AP Indy grandson who greatly resembles API moreso than his sire; this isn't uncommon, in my experience.

    Pulpit, by AP Indy-- they seem to be stamped with nice front ends, beautiful arched necks and shoulders. Some of them are kinda short with chunky pony bodies, but those with legs are super nice...and most of them are athletic, chunky or not.

    Langfuhr-- usually have big, huge shoulders, big hips, and an enormous walk. If they aren't too big for themselves, pretty nice movers and jumpers.

    Fappiano and his relateds-- it's hard to go wrong with Fapp relatives: Quiet American, Comet Shine, Unbridled, etc. Unbridled's Song himself gives me pause, but the rest of them make me happy. All seem to have great proportions, nice toplines, good solid horses and overwhelming success in sport.

    Sadler's Wells-- he's made a tremendous amount of nice turf horses, and some super jumpers too. I'm a fan of his son El Prado, too...usually pretty proportionate. And another who makes yummy-looking kids: Medaglia D'Oro, by El Prado.

    Storm Cat-- yeah they can be headcases, but also athletic, cat-like, and some are great movers. I'm not crazy about most SC sons at stud...I run away from Giant's Causeway, for example, but it depends on the horse. I've liked a few Hennessy's-- but I love Hennessy's dam (by Hawaii). SC on the mare side is highly variable...some are nice, some are not, hard to judge.

    Roberto-- not always the best movers, but great jumpers. Rode a Roberto foxhunter who was as game as they come. Roberto seems to be fairly common among steeplechasers (like McDynamo, by Dynaformer, a son of Roberto).


    Others I'm keeping an eye on:
    Include-- by Broad Brush, he has some old school up close. I've only seen a couple personally, but they were tall, uphill, long legs and big flowing strides. My type.

    Empire Maker-- it sucks he went to Japan, he's had some nice athletic types. Don't know many in sport horse careers (yet), but I like the type of horse he makes: moderate size, proportionate, classic TBs with big hearts.

    Tiznow-- he stamps his get well with a super classic TB look. They always seem to catch my eye out in the field, just the way they're put together: long legs, long uphill necks, with a look of eagles. Tend to have upright pasterns; don't know how well they hold up, or if they jump, but I'd be willing to give it a try!

    Lion Heart-- he himself was decidedly NOT my type, but I fell in love with quite a few of his offspring who were well-proportioned, leggy, and had great minds. Good-looking horses, too bad Lion Heart went to Turkey.

    Cherokee Run (and sons)-- I haven't met enough of them personally to get a good judgment, but they tend to be light, athletic types with chrome. I get the impression they'd jump the moon and move well, but don't know enough of them in sport to say for sure.
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~



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