[Rubyfree]

I don't know... If I popped onto a board where a significant percentage of the posters were involved in social work, CPS, children's therapy, what have you and said "I'm going to have a baby. I saw some good looking guys at the bar last night, should I call their houses? Not looking for advice on whether I should have a baby, just want to know how to get started." I would be a little disappointed if someone didn't beat me with a heavy, pointy stick.

[gumtree]

Sure its on topic! and a good question.
Rather than a lengthy answer... follow this link that perfectly, and simply explains this..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6151033AAwy4K6

Gezz, just when I thought I had done my duty for the day of dispelling myths and correcting misinformation. Now I have deal with a Yahoo post.
Brightsky after offering up an excellent rebuttal to my post on the “other” tread I am disappointed that you would direct someone to such a vague and pretty much worthless answer to an important question.
IMO most simple questions can not always be answered correctly and well with short answers. Especially when it comes to horses and or the business of.
In short Black type gives credence to races that a horse has won. The term comes from the fact that names of horses that won or were placed in designated stakes races were given a ’ bold face” black font on their pedigree page. Especially in sales catalogues at the time.
Any race can be called a “Stake Race” the purse can be for $1 or $1 million. And for this reason in the early 70’s the international breeding and sales industry decided it needed to sort things out and give relevance to stake races through out the world. The International Pattern Race Committee was established to review and rate all stakes races. The most important are given a designation, in this country they are called Graded stakes, Grade 1, Grade 2, Grade 3 and just under that they are called Listed. In the rest of the world instead of Grade they are referred to as Group 1, etc. A Listed race is the same through out. In pedigrees the symbol use is generally G1,G2, G3, LR. Sometimes Gr 1 etc. Then there is “Listed Restricted” which means there were conditions associated with being eligible to run in the race. For the most part a quality field restricted to “State Breds”. There was a time when horses that finished 4th, out of the money, in Grade 1 races were given “Black Type” status also. All “Black Type” designated races are reviewed each year to determine if they keep their status. Some are “upgraded” some are “downgraded” and some are dropped all together as a graded stake race. It all depends on the historical “quality” of the competition. The value of a race, the purse offered, does not have a direct bearing on it Grade. A race track can and has “carded” a new stakes race with a $1 mil purse but it will take a couple of years running’s before it will be considered for a “Graded” status. Again, the decision by the committee will be based on the quality of the competitors. ALL sale companies and breeders through out the world recognize the standard for Black Type. The one thing that the Yahoo poster got correct is all “stakes races” under a certain amount of money do not get Black Type. Also to complicate things there are certain stake races run in various countries that will get “local” “Black Type” statistically relevant to that country but not on the International scale. To use Canada as an example, the designation would be GR 1 Can down to LR Can.

[Equilibrium]

How is it different than back yard dog breeding? Well litter size, length of pregnancy, and costs. Costs especially when even starting with a stud fee on racehorses.

If I came on here and told you all I just bought a smashing yearling colt for $1500, that I was going to win graded races with. You all would laugh and then of course tell me how deluded I was. Mare was only minor stake mare and not a great pedigree. Don't get your hopes up and might be best if plan on a sport horse career. In the hands of you people Trinniberg wouldn't be running.

Those of you in the industry complaining about the waste should have gotten now that it's big breeding establishments playing the numbers game that contribute more waste than someone who is really looking forward to a foal. These people are also usually the first to stand up for their horses when racing is over such is the emotional attachment. I never forget going down to Coolmore with my little French Deputy mare. She was put on a private yard with about 10 other mare and foals. I looked at the breeding of these mares and knew the black type mares. Manes long with knots, some quite skinny, feet were all in various states of yuck with foals at their sides by stallions I could only dream of. Yet there was my mare. Bathed, clean named halters all polished, shiny coat, feet done ect. Pride and love for my horses. I handed over a list of her vaccs, worming, and last blacksmith. Looked at me like I had 3 heads. Basically the farm was going to bill me for these things, and looking at the other mares I can see why, and I wasn't getting billed for the heck of it.

Anyway, take the blinkers off and quit jumping to conclusions. At the end of the day if only black type blue bloods were the only horses allowed to be bred and to run, someone is still going to be useless. What is it Denny said in that article, " pedigree counts, but don't count on the pedigree."

Terri

[judybigredpony]

..at least this one didn't get so nasty..

Haa...went where I thought it would....

[cloudyandcallie]

I think the objections raised are concerns from people who witness the overflow of so many well-bred horses that dont make it in racing --- this mare doesnt have any black type, and certainly didnt show anything in her starts. She was under a trainer that if she had any talent at all, he would have found it.

The breeder got lucky having her claimed for 25K, and finding a partnership - she quickly dropped to 12,5. I would imagine she was *retired* to a rescue in Md to rehome this mare(she was racing in Philly/Pa). I also dont see anything in her pedigree that screams *sporthorse* either.

The best of the best, Denny Emerson, continually posts on the benefits of breeding only the best and the proven horses, mares and studs alike --- he has the proof to back his words; to which I must agree.

There are plenty of great yearlings, 2yr olds to be had ... that in the end will cost MUCH less than raising the homebred.

Ive worked for top professional trainers/breeders and witnessed the overflow in the back fields of fabulous horses to choose from that just arent cut for the business they were bred for.

OTOH, the owner is free to do as they choose with their horse and all anyone can do is hope and pray they are aware of the responsibilities.




.

I agree with this poster. She's seen what happens to horses at Penn National. I think people who breed horses (or dogs or cats) now should take a look at what happens to those who end up in slaughterhouses or on CL. It takes a long time to learn how to breed for racing or jumping or whatever. People need to read online and read the breeding books and do some investigation before breeding their animals. I buy from responsible breeders/dealers. Lauraky is in KY and has seen the castoff racehorses.

And I've owned 3 ottb mares. And never bred any of the 3, despite pressure from people here who were breeding horses they couldn't sell. My little Impressionist mare (Trakehner) is with Cloudy, who shoots blanks.

[doublete]

Just figured Id jump in... TO the OP... I havent been doing this super long, but I've found when it comes down to it, you can get a yearling at the sale for much cheaper, and know what you are getting in the end. Too much expense, too much stress to breed. So I like my yearling sales. A lot.
I do havea mare I am trying to get bred right now (crossing fingers she is going to check in foal since it is so late), but she was a winner of 13 races, won 6 starter allowance races in a ROW for me, has a pretty decent pedigree, and is very correct conformationally. Her attitude and race record are exactly what I want in a foal. So I paired her with Langfuhr, who stands for a hefty, but fair stud feed given the fact he has great percentage of foals to race and win. Every one of his kids I have seen RUNS.
But, this means I will have a LOT into this foal before it even turns 2 years old. I do know this, but I think I've set myself up for success by pairing to a proven sire with a mare that has proven herself on the track but not as a broodmare.
There are a lot of entirely well researched foals that end up doing NOTHING on the track, so the odds are not in your favor if they aren't well researched and well backed by racing or pedigree.
I had a Forest Wildcat once that someone paid $240,000 for at the Keeneland Yearling sale. Guess what he did... Broke his maiden for $4,000 at Penn National.

[brightskyfarm]

Gumtree.... even I learned something from your answer. I knew it was complicated --- but you explained it! and well....
its me, who thanks you .

[halo]

It isn't, and odds are a similar post asking how to go about breeding a dog would elicit negative responses from many of the posters who are "staying positive".



LauraKY, Brightskyfarm, Laurierace et all ARE educating and disseminating information. If it's not the information you want, I will borrow a statement from snicklefritzg: "...just go read another thread or go ride your horse."



Applause.


"This mare is pretty and nice and I recognize her sire's name... I should breed her and race the foal!" is a whole different bag of apples from "I would like to get into racing. I'd like to breed my own runners. I should get looking for some great quality mares, research my states breeder incentives, get to know some trainers, talk to some stud farms......"

Your first hint that this is a lousy idea for this poster (and her mare) is that she lives in a state with one of the best breeding programs in the country and she wants to haul the mare to KY. Conclusion: Does not research.

Hint #2 is that she offered a cattle dog on giveaways because she "didn't realize when we bought her how much energy and time they needed". Conclusion: Does not research.

OP, just don't. Please. Your mare is probably really nice. Go look for another OTTB with a similar pedigree for yourself and buy into a partnership to sate your ownership twinges.

I'm cranky. It's a million degrees and thick as molasses up here. Friend just sent me a pic of a colt we helped raise several years ago in the kill pen at NH two months ago. He was distinctively marked. Homebred & raced by a guy with a lot of experience and industry know-how who always tried hard to do right by the ones he brought into the world. Colt got claimed and breeder lost track of him. Probably dead now. Colts dam narrowly avoided a similar fate after breeder's daughter went nuts and shuttered the barn basically overnight- put the mare and several others on the dealer truck and washed her hands of that. She'd earned 200K at the track and produced yearly for her people. I found her last year at a saddleseat barn in the area- she came with the property apparently, abandoned by the previous tenants. She survived and is living the good life now but the intervening years were not kind to her.

We really need someone to come up with a reasonable way to spay mares. Having all that empty uterus around is apparently just too tempting for some folks.

This might be the most significant paragraph I have ever read on this forum. It is so true, people breeding these rescue or cheap mares are doing it so backwards. Would you go to a shelter and rescue a female dalmation, take her home and say, you know, she has some really nice spots on her, I should breed her and produce some show puppies! Its the same thing.

All these people posting about breeding their new mares didnt even consider breeding a race horse until a mare dropped into their laps. Then its, oh, what a great idea, I should breed a race horse. Without learning a single thing before jumping in. The OP hasnt the first clue on what she's doing. Her first line was "just wondering if anyone knows how I would start." She's not someone who fell in love with racing, read up on it, talked to people in the biz, decided this is something she would love to do, so she got the best mare she could find. She, like thousands of others, are jumping into something for all the wrong reasons, just because she happened to get a mare. Its no wonder people here go bezerk.

[omare]

Let say one did try to learn and complusively checked the breeding on canter mares to see if something may pop up of value for a modest breeding program and you had your own place and could use your own elbow grease and keep your mistakes, etc.(P.S. and you love the sport)

When might a mare be worth taking a chance on? I once read someone on this forum saying you needed to have a grade 1 stakeswinner or in immediate family which seemed like there would not be very many horses bred a year if that was true?

As an example (only), what about this mare? http://www.pedigreequery.com/spicey+dish

This colt shares the same dam so you an see her page.
http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/nov09/pdfs/2712.pdf

Some smattering of stakes winners and all foals in the first two dams have been winners . She has raced to 8.)

TIA

(P.S. another mare that was up on canter when Havre de grace was awarded her HOY. I realize not enough black type up close but she is from the family of havre de grace and i loved seeing toll booth what a grand mare.) http://www.pedigreequery.com/private+screening2

[WhiteCamry]

I don't know... If I popped onto a board where a significant percentage of the posters were involved in social work, CPS, children's therapy, what have you and said "I'm going to have a baby. I saw some good looking guys at the bar last night, should I call their houses? Not looking for advice on whether I should have a baby, just want to know how to get started." I would be a little disappointed if someone didn't beat me with a heavy, pointy stick.

[LauraKY]

The Canter adoption agreement will not allow breeding for the track, however if it's just a Canter listing purchased from a trainer, breeding for all sports is allowed.

I've personally seen the result of an unsuitable Canter mare bred for sport by a newbie who didn't have a clue. The results weren't pretty...most of the offspring were given away (one was sold for a nominal price) and the mare was given away as well. On craigslist. I did warn her that a horse in good flesh was at risk for going to a kill buyer.

[foundationmare]

Actually she is not on CANTER, but on the Finger Lakes Thoroughbreds Trainers Listings. They have no restrictions because the negotiations for purchase are between the owner/trainer and new owner.

And BTW, I once worked with her and she was quite lovely.

[omare]

"And BTW, I once worked with her and she was quite lovely"

She certainly looked like she would have class and her female line certianly had some powerful producers.

[brightskyfarm]

Lets step back and get a focus on the bigger picture of the canter listed horses. Why do you think there is such a service>? Answer: trainers need an outlet for horses not suitable for racing but may still be suitable for other careers.

Not all horses that dont make it racing end up on the canter listings either. Many trainers come from different fields and take the initiative to have their horses retrained, shown, and sold, sometimes for prices around 8-10-15k -- a solid, packer at BN/N can price between 15-18K. The jumpers have proven themselves for decades! and the hunters both of ring /field are highly prized.

Broodmares of value are usually sold privately to breeders.

LauraKY's story is common. I even know of a mare with a similar story --

There are a lot of good broodmares, but most likely, not listed on canter and not for under $2500,. Its always been my suggestion with someone determined to do this ... find a proven BM, same theory as a schoolmaster for a green rider -- it will give you some advantage of knowing what to expect from a foal.

[jenm]

There are plenty of worse offenders than 1 backyard breeder.

Sort of true, however, you forget this is 1 potential backyard breeder out of thousands who are adding substandard horses to a country inundated with unwanted horses who will most likely end up in a kill pen...

I don't know... If I popped onto a board where a significant percentage of the posters were involved in social work, CPS, children's therapy, what have you and said "I'm going to have a baby. I saw some good looking guys at the bar last night, should I call their houses? Not looking for advice on whether I should have a baby, just want to know how to get started." I would be a little disappointed if someone didn't beat me with a heavy, pointy stick.

[kcmel]

"And BTW, I once worked with her and she was quite lovely"

She certainly looked like she would have class and her female line certianly had some powerful producers.

Not only Toll Booth, but through her super-daughter Christiecat. What a race mare she was!

[halo]

One thing that new people just dont seem to understand regarding the pedigree on their mare, is that unless the mare is a half sister to a good stakes winner,or her dam is a good stakes winner herself, then the page on the foal being produced will have no black type until the 3rd dam. Thats a blank first and second dam, and thats a pretty ugly page. The current market has been very unkind to those types of mares, which is why they end up on canter and craigslist.

[cloudyandcallie]

Excellent article in NY Times today on I'll Have Another and the issues he had before theywithdrew him from the Belmont. Of course those of us who know racing knew he had issues before the ones that caused his retirement.

Denial of all the issues in breeding crappy racehorses won't solve the problems in racing now. There's a reason (well more than one) that there are no longer Native Dancer, Needles, Kelso, Slew, Affirmed, etc., retiring sound and living to old age. It's called irresponsible breeding of horses in the last decades.

[Beaver Breeze]

Needles didn't retire sound; he had a flareup of a tendon at age 4 that had first become a problem as a 3YO. They were afraid he'd bow, so he was retired.

[halo]

Native Dancer and Kelso didnt retire sound either. Anyone else?