[Haffy Hop]

What's wrong with my mare! Chronically NQR under saddle.

I'm about ready to tear my hair out over my horse! After multiple saddles (including treeless, and I've tried riding her bareback), bits, girths, massage therapists, chiropractors, hock injections, ulcergard for a couple weeks (huge waste of $$), ovary ultrasound, mare supplements + injections, equine dentist,(diagnosed with TMJ, fixed teeth, stopped her chronic head tossing) and being on an EPSM diet for over a year (which seems to help some, at least she goes forward now!), there is still something wrong!

She has never had an unsound day since I bought her, never favors a leg, flexs clean, etc. under saddle she just looks freakin' weird!

Her chest, girth area, middle of her crest, and the bottom of her neck are consistently sore. Her withers are sore on and off. Her back and hind end muscles feel extremely tight. She gets regular massages, and they barely help for long. Chiropractic does nothing.

Her back is very weird and asymmetrical. She has a huge dip on her right shoulder, and the right side of her back seems lower. The saddle always wants to shift diagonally forward to the right (not just sideways) She is VERY girthy, and also will pin her ears and try to bite when being bridled.

She seems to have very little motion through her spine and SI. region when moving. She has no problem doing carrot stretches, and seems to have good mobility in her neck. She will do pelvic tucks and back lifts. She ALWAYS rests one hind leg, or stands with one leg forward, and she never stands square behind. She is always stocked up behind. It goes down with work, but doesn't go away completely.

She has a fancy trot on the lunge line. Good hind leg action, steps under herself, and is very free in her front end and shoulder. Also a great walk. She has a pretty decent canter, but wants to travel on the forehand. extremely stiff if trotted in a 10m circle, and doesn't bend her hind legs at all.

UNDER SADDLE: Occasionally we will have a nice ride where her movement is decent, but most of the time she moves horribly. Icky sewing machine trot, lateral/four-beat canter. Extremely resistant to moving into contact, head tossing in the canter, wants to throw her head up during transitions.

She is also incredibly crooked. She WILL NOT bend right. If you straighten her, and try to flex right through her poll on a straight line, she either gets angry, sticks her head in the air, avoids contact, or starts trying to swing her haunches around.

She also does the strangest thing when turning, she actually crosses her hind leg completely OVER (like she's leg yielding) instead of flexing her leg and bending. MUCH worse to the right, will do it slightly to the left. She tries to fall out, and if you correct her, will try to either counterbend, kick out at your outside leg, or do her sewing machine trot in slow motion.

Her left lead canter feels nicer and more balanced, but is four beats. She is extremely resistant to the right, and will try to run away with you. The only way to get a consistent connection right is to slightly counter bend her. Her canter is either four-beat, or lateral. She wants to waggle her head side to side, even when my hands are completely still.

She is incapable of sitting and using her hind end. She wants to drag herself around on the forehand, including through transitions. She has a lot of trouble going downhill when ridden outside. She looks extremely stiff and NQR in her hind end, but I can't see her favoring a leg. She holds her back, butt, and spine stiff as a board. She can barely cross her legs when leg yielding. I can do all the suppling exercises in the world, and she still won't unlock her back if its a bad day. Sometimes she will relax and carry herself near the end of our rides.

She will move forward and over her back if you give her a long rein, and ride in free walk/stretchy trot/canter, but is horrible if you ride on contact.

She just seems ANGRY under saddle. She's a 'boss' type mare, but this goes beyond being dominant. I really feel like this is a physical issue. Recently she's started kicking out at my leg more, and is getting much more reactive. She's supposed to be my dressage horse. She's incredibly difficult to ride for anyone.

Does anyone have ideas about what might be wrong with her? I feel like its something coming from her upper body. She doesn't respond to bute. I don't have the money to afford a bone scan, or any fancy diagnostics. I'm on a pretty limited budget. I feel like it might be a sacroiliac problem, but she doesn't palpate sore. Is it possible for something in her neck or withers to affect her hind end? Also, why would her issues mainly be showing up under saddle?

I will try to get video ASAP! I'm going to try to get a good lameness vet out next week to look at her, but I would really appreciate some suggestions in the mean time.

[Tap2Tango]

First thing that usually comes to my mind when a horse is NQR and you're having trouble pin pointing an exact area is Lyme or EPM. Have you discussed these possibilities with your vet before?

[Simkie]

Why on earth are you still trying to ride her through all these issues? I'd rule out the various tick borne diseases, EPM, and selenium deficiency, and then I would look at the neck and the SI area. Both are relatively difficult to image and you may be out of luck if you can't swing a bone scan.

It sounds like she may have multiple issues and if she is that cranky and that lame, stay off of her! Turn her out, give her some time. Treat her with gabapentin for her pain and see if she's better after a year.

[tradewind]

If she were mine, and I could go no further with diagnostics I would NOT be riding her. Horses are not normally angry under saddle. I would indeed check for tick borne diseases or EPM. If she truly has ulcers 2 weeks of ulcerguard is not enough. I think she should be seen by the best diagnostic vet in your area, she may have multiple issues going on. IMHO it is mean of you to continue to ride her until you have sorted out what is going on.

[Haffy Hop]

I was feeling pretty ranty when I wrote this. I probably over exaggerated a little because of how frustrated I am. I should clarify that my mare isn't exactly angry, but she is crabby, and her sweetheart personality on the ground definitely does not carry over to being ridden. To someone watching, she doesn't look upset, but you can tell when riding her that she is grumpy at times.

She is NOT lame. She is stiff in her hind, and her movement under saddle looks odd. She is perfectly happy on a long rein, and allowed to go how she wants. When asked to do dressage work, she starts getting resistant.

I'm frustrated because I can't progress with her at all. Some of our rides are decent, some are not good. She looks a lot better than she feels to ride.

She has had these issues to some degree for the past year. She moves oddly at times, but the crabbiness is new. She doesn't seem like she's in serious pain or distress, and I can't tell if she's uncomfortable. Mainly, she seems resistant to being asked to work because she seems so locked up through her back and hind end.

She has had some time off before. Also forgot that she's been tested for Vitamin E/Selenium deficiency. Hasn't it been to long for it to be Lymes or EPM? I've never heard of Gabapentin before, would it be effective if bute doesn't do anything?

She does much better when she's worked regularly. This is one of our good rides, from a couple days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si5mM8ePfTA&feature=youtu.be

She feels resistant here, but you can't see it very well. You can still see how her hind end looks funny sometimes, and how she doesn't bend her hocks well. You can also see how she does her weird walk/trot transitions at around 3:30 minutes. Happy stretchy trot with better movement at 4:00 minutes.

Basically, I'm wondering if I would be correct in thinking that she might have sacroiliac issues, even though she doesn't display all of the signs. I can afford diagnostics, injections, etc.

[Simkie]

This? All screams LAME HORSE.

Icky sewing machine trot, lateral/four-beat canter. Extremely resistant to moving into contact, head tossing in the canter, wants to throw her head up during transitions.

She is also incredibly crooked. She WILL NOT bend right. If you straighten her, and try to flex right through her poll on a straight line, she either gets angry, sticks her head in the air, avoids contact, or starts trying to swing her haunches around.

She also does the strangest thing when turning, she actually crosses her hind leg completely OVER (like she's leg yielding) instead of flexing her leg and bending. MUCH worse to the right, will do it slightly to the left. She tries to fall out, and if you correct her, will try to either counterbend, kick out at your outside leg, or do her sewing machine trot in slow motion.

Her left lead canter feels nicer and more balanced, but is four beats. She is extremely resistant to the right, and will try to run away with you. The only way to get a consistent connection right is to slightly counter bend her. Her canter is either four-beat, or lateral. She wants to waggle her head side to side, even when my hands are completely still.

She is incapable of sitting and using her hind end. She wants to drag herself around on the forehand, including through transitions. She has a lot of trouble going downhill when ridden outside. She looks extremely stiff and NQR in her hind end, but I can't see her favoring a leg. She holds her back, butt, and spine stiff as a board. She can barely cross her legs when leg yielding.

Please go read this thread here: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=353603 Several similarities. I think it's more likely that your horse neck issues than SI issues, but perhaps that's just my bias in having a horse with c-spine arthritis.

Gabapentin works beautifully on neuro based pain that bute will often not touch. Article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764439

[andylover]

What breed is she?

[Perfect Pony]

I cannot see a thing in that video. You need a decent video that someone actually takes and follows you, outside, and when she is having a bad day.

Your post to me says some sort of mild neuro issues - mainly because you claim she is not lame, but has all sorts of weird "issues", especially with going forward and using her hind end properly. That was my horse.

IMO you really need to get the horse to a clinic that knows their stuff and has the experience and tools to diagnose these type of NQR horses. They are a rare breed in my experience, but they are out there.

[candico]

I do know some of these sulky, not so forward guys, can appear a little unstable, crooked, even uncoordinated until you get them in front of your leg. From what I could see, you need to get some more "wind in the sails" before being able to make a fair evaluation. But nevertheless, difficult to see anything in that video that is concerning. EPSM horses can take a long time to loosen up even on the "diet", so I give mine at least 15 minutes of joggy long and low, but then I think a little more tough love is in order as it appears you are a pretty kind and easy going rider. Especially that she will trot better on the lunge. My one guy that my sister rides will get lazy so I will go stand in the middle with a lunge whip and "new horse" appears. I think that the EPSM horses do feel sore more, but the only way to get them more supple and moving better is a bit of tough love. The canter is notoriously more difficult for them and sometimes just having the motivation of getting behind a more forward horse can help develop the muscles and stamina to maintain a decent canter. Hope that helps!

[findeight]

Sounds like you need to get a full
work up-have you done blocks yet?

Best guess based on what you say and my experience? You need an MRI or other imaging on her neck, back and hind end. Chiro without first determining exactly what is wrong (and getting the x rays/rads/MRI) scares me. What if she has a fracture somewhere like the hip or pelvis? A dropped hip? What if it's kissing spines? Those produce all sorts of weird things but not outright lamness.

Think you need to really get her to a clinic where they can use the serious diagnostic equipment available to pinpoint the issue. Going to cost less then chasing what might be wrong and maybe doing further harm.

I am at work and cannot watch the video.

[Ambitious Kate]

I see a horse being ridden with her nose down somewhere around her knees.

"Every step on the forehand is a step closer to lameness".

I would find a trainer who would help me understand how to trainer her to be light in the forehand and push with her engine. Otherwise, she's going to pull herself around with her front end until he has navicular problems.

Other than that, if you feel you have neurological prolbems unrelated to how she is being ridden, have a full lameness exam done including bone scan and mri. Any horse ridden on the forehand like that will be lame after a while. You shouldn't even step off after mounting until she is round and on the bit.

Good luck.

[Perfect Pony]

You shouldn't even step off after mounting until she is round and on the bit.

Really? Before a horse has had time to warm up naturally? I agree it's not a good idea to ride a horse around constantly on it's forehand, but forcing a horse round from the moment you get on it's back is just asking for another set of problems.

[quietann]

Would agree with everyone else that she needs to be seen by a vet.

She looks a lot like mine did before she got her SI injections. Please, please if you go this route use a vet who does live ultrasound to guide the injections.

[ponysize]

I see a horse being ridden with her nose down somewhere around her knees.

"Every step on the forehand is a step closer to lameness".

I would find a trainer who would help me understand how to trainer her to be light in the forehand and push with her engine. Otherwise, she's going to pull herself around with her front end until he has navicular problems.

Other than that, if you feel you have neurological prolbems unrelated to how she is being ridden, have a full lameness exam done including bone scan and mri. Any horse ridden on the forehand like that will be lame after a while. You shouldn't even step off after mounting until she is round and on the bit.

Good luck.

Um this would lame this horse further. A horse that can't get under itself can't get round. She said this horse is fine on the loose rein, but gets crabby when asked to do dressage work. This horse is lame. The horse is telling her it is uncomfotable doing what she is asking it to do. It's probably on the forehand because it can't sit behind.

If you can't afford any further diagnostic work, it is time to retire the horse. Or, turn him out until you can save up to do further diagnostics.

[Trinity3205]

She looks like she toe walks/trots from what little I can see. Got any feet pictures? Sometimes the simplest things can affect a horse.

[Orchid]

She looks off on her RH--whether that is the main issue, or secondary, the vet will have to sort out. Her pelvis doesn't look like it comes up level, and she seems to be stabbing the RH (notice the dirt she kicks up on the RH vs. LH). If her saddle is slipping, get up above and behind her to see if her shoulders are symmetical on top--guessing they are not. Good Luck!

[LLong]

You may have already said this, but how consistently is she worked?


I think it could just be muscle weakness. She's a big girl.. that's a lot of weight to carry around. I would get her on a routine, working her 5-6x times a week, easy rides at first, but lots of hacking and hill work, and working those muscles she's not working plopping around in the ring.

If you think a certain side is weaker (I think you said right canter is worse) then I would do some hill work at an angle so her right hind is on the inside, so it HAS to work. She may hate this, in which case just do a little.

You know your horse best.. Obviously if a vet thinks you shouldn't ride, then you shouldn't.. but if I got the okay from the vet, I would see how much of it went away if I got her good shape.

Good luck!

[candico]

None of the EPSM horses I've ridden have been able to engage the hind end well straight after you get on. Usually takes at least 15 minutes, and one of mine in particular looks fairly crippled behind in the beginning, but gets 95% sound and has done dressage work for seven years like this, third level now, without the hind end getting any worse. It would be unfair to ask them to round up straight off.

Have had vet and chiro regularly and he will sometimes be extra sore in the gluteus or SI but more muscle wise. The mare we have gets sore in the neck and shoulder muscles as well as near the withers as you have described. When we have injected, we don't do joint, instead Sarapin into the sore muscle groups which works wonders. I would love to try a BOT blanket. His right hind is not as good as the left, but go to any show or boarding facility and the horse that is 100% even behind and doesn't drag it's toes is a miracle, sadly and a pet peeve of mine, but I realize it doesn't mean the horse needs to be retired!
Anyway, in warm up he misses his tracking up into his front hoof print by a foot, the 12 inch kind, and when he has loosened up he has the best overtrack in the barn, at least two hoof's worth. But he "has" to get exercised regularly. Because the turnout area isn't huge, I do loose lunge him quite a bit and when he went to the trainer that had a Eurocizer he warmed up in more like two to five minutes. So maybe a vigorous walk on the trail before you start in the ring will help. Also might increase the fat intake and see if that helps. My 16.3 guy needs 3 cups. I tried cutting him back to two and a half for being a fatty, but the EPSM symptoms got a lot worse. Btw, I find these guys more prone to ulcers without necessarily showing traditional symptoms, but a trial of omeprazole may be worth a shot as well.
Yes, your horse could have something more serious, but maybe it is worth working her a lot harder either on her back or on the lunge consistently for a few days and see if she gets worse or better. If better, I think the symptoms are more from inflammation of the muscles caused by the horse maybe being too sedentary, and worse, at least it will be more obvious to the vet where to start.
The workout I could see in that video would barely provoke a sweat, and mine start moving for "tens" after they start sweating and not because of hot weather. fWIW

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I didn't watch the whole video, but all I definitively saw in the snipits of video I watched was a mare on the forehand or behind the bit. She looks a bit out of shape as well. How often and how long is she worked?

I'm not saying there isn't something wrong, but that video isn't particularly helpful. It would be better if you could get someone to film you directly.

I would have her looked at by a good lameness specialist and agree that you should go to a clinic that has access to the heavier-duty diagnostics. I'm sure it would be a relief to get a final answer on what is wrong. Good luck!

[Wayside]

Her back is very weird and asymmetrical. She has a huge dip on her right shoulder, and the right side of her back seems lower.

Is it possible that this right here is the problem, instead of being a side effect of another problem? Many of us, human and equine, are not symetrical. Usually it's fairly subtle, but once in a while there can be a fairly significant difference.

I used to ride a mare who had a right side that was much smaller than her left side. Because of this she maxed out at about 2nd level, but she was comfortable with lower level work. In order to compensate for her unevenness, she was ridden with two saddle pads - one across her back like a normal saddle pad, and the other one folded in half and placed entirely on the right side.