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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 24, 2010
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    271

    Default bloodline questions

    I will admit that I am a almost totally english rider, though I have finally broken down and bought a western saddle so I can go team penning, and about 3 years ago I "acquired" an APHA stallion from a friend that was being transferred across country. His only requests were 1 - that if I ever decide to sell him he gets first right of refusal and 2 - I have to keep him a stallion for 6 months and then if I still wanted to geld him to let him breed something to him first. I agreed and went to pick up my new boy (I DID NOT need another horse at the time especially a stallion). Needless to say that in the first 6 months he really endeared himself to me and he is so well behaved that I don't really see a point in gelding him except we are limited in our activities. I have trail ridden him, evented him, shown hunters (though I'm a little big on him by hunter standards), fox hunted with him and over all have been having a blast with my little guy. I am trying to get the nerve up to taking him teampenning but the only time I have ever come off was when we were hacking down the road and the farmer's cows were out(he went cow hearding and it took me coming off to get him to stop cutting the cows). Everyone who is from the western world that has looked at his bloodlines says please don't geld him. I even had one person beg me to let them breed their mare to him. I have a great yearling pony baby that is a saint so far. I would like someone to explain his bloodlines to me because I'm kinda just lost.

    here is his pedigree.
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/smokes+ace

    any insite would be greatly appreciated.
    Member of the Standardbreds with Saddles Clique!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    43,103

    Default

    First a disclaimer, I am old and old breeders would never bred blue eyes or that large a bald face.
    Why?
    Those were considered defects, that would cause the horse discomfort.
    When horses were kept outside in our dry, windy country, those kinds of markings made for much misery.
    One local paint breeder kept having several such foals, he could see how bad those horses were, cancer eye common in them, so he finally quit breeding paints.

    Today, you can manage past that by keeping a horse indoors and using fly masks and tatooing around their eyes if there is no pigment, as some friends do.
    Blue eyes themselves are fine, other than a bit more sensitive to light.
    I would still not breed that, although others don't mind, some breed for that.

    Now, the top is really nice, I like all those horses there, especially the Mr Gun Smoke, where the baldface may have come from.
    Those were a bit hot horses, but more sensible than most, really excellent dispositions all around and very kind and extremely trainable.
    Those horses on the top part, some of them don't move too well, more like a car with square wheels.
    Then others are normal, all good disposition ones.
    One of our better ranch horse stallions was Oklahoma Star breeding, another a son of Bill Cody, that also ran at the track.
    Silvertone is a stallion we bred to and got an OWL foal, that didn't survive.
    In those days they thought that was because crossing a buckskin with a palomino would cause that. Today we know better.
    We kept two of his fillies for broodmares and they had very nice foals.

    I would guess that top is where any cow comes from, if he is really cowy.

    The bottom is a bit more of a mismatch, Doc O Lena of course cowy, but I don't see that coming thru in him, those are generally weedier horses, with a rougher head, although athletic as heck, but a bit nervous, more than their share cribbers, weavers, fence pacers.
    The second dam at the bottom, some of it show breeding, not cow breeding, but those may bring more size and good looks.

    All the breeding in the world just tell us who the parents where and no one knows how those genes will mix.
    That is why there used to be so much inbreeding long ago, trying to even the odds by stacking the genes you hoped would come thru.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
    Posts
    4,558

    Default

    Like Bluey said, the top side has some history and some money makers. There are Hall of Fame horses on the top side.

    The first horse that seemed to earn any money on the bottom side was Doc O lena.

    *shrug* if you like him, keep him a stud. Pleasure horse people won't be interested, and the cutting people want a better dam line with more money earners up close.

    Your stud is a striking looking boy though.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    May. 8, 2004
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    4,325

    Default

    bluey, that was a really interesting post about the bloodlines. Genetics is fascinating. I didn't know there was a general aversion to a bald face in the past, but I have always been concerned with light sensitivity in a blue eye/bald face.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chai View Post
    bluey, that was a really interesting post about the bloodlines. Genetics is fascinating. I didn't know there was a general aversion to a bald face in the past, but I have always been concerned with light sensitivity in a blue eye/bald face.
    The aversion to too much white and especially apron faces may be regional, due to our harsh semi-desert environment.

    In other parts of the country, with less dust and wind and sun exposure, that may not be so much a concern, as it would not be on show horses kept mostly indoors most of their adult lives.

    People around here still had those horses at times, they are flashy.
    Breeders would not breed purposeful for them, in fact minimal white was preferred.
    Some of it was the thought of white feet being less strong, that has been disproved.

    One other paint breeder here had tobiano lines and some were APHA champions.
    He too stayed away from too much white and definitely from blue eyes.
    Genetics are so much better understood today, it is a whole different ballgame for breeders.

    One advantage of years of breeding and being around all lines of horses performing is that you get an idea of what you have and what you may get when you breed.
    I think anyone starting to breed should pick the brains of all that came before.
    We have enough haphazardly bred horses out there today that no one has any use for, coming on a horse market that is more sophisticated and doesn't want them.
    Buyers are very picky any more.

    I would consider seriously before keeping a horse a stallion, for his own sake, his life will be so much easier as a gelding.
    Gelding is considered good management.
    There are many fashionably bred stallions standing at stud with a performance record and their foals for sale.
    That is how this horse happen to be born.
    Not many of the sons and grandsons of proven stallions should reproduce just because their breeding somewhere back there has some proven, well known sires.

    Breeding more horses into a world with too many already seems a bit selfish today, when anyone can buy another like that one easily.

    Breeding should be more than an emotional decision, the "I love my dog so much, I want a puppy from her" sentiment, not realizing that there are already oodles of similar puppies out there.

    Those are questions I would give serious consideration before keeping him a stallion.

    Old time ranch breeders used a stallion for a few years and about ten, when they started keeping fillies off that stallion old enough to reproduce, they would geld it and they made great geldings.

    The picture here, the palomino on the left is the son of the now 14 year old sorrel gelding, a son of Bill Cody, third from the left.
    He was a super nice stallion and an even more awesome gelding.
    He was gelded at ten and was a ranch horse, cutting and roping arena horse and pony horse at the track and helping starting colts:

    http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...mber272005.jpg

    We raised four of those six horses.
    The gray colt third from the right was sired by our Oklahoma Star stallion.
    The other two grays, the little white one is a Hollywood Gold son and the filly on the far right is a daughter of Badger Mel.
    John Wayne bought all the colts that neighbor produced for his cowboys.
    Both of those gray horses were bred by neighbors.
    The bigger sorrel four year old second from right was by our stallion that was a half brother to Doc Bar.
    That was before Doc Bar became famous.
    He was a stake winner at the track.
    Last edited by Bluey; Jun. 22, 2012 at 09:31 AM.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2008
    Location
    Carrollton, Ga
    Posts
    1,259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    The aversion to too much white and especially apron faces may be regional, due to our harsh semi-desert environment.

    In other parts of the country, with less dust and wind and sun exposure, that may not be so much a concern, as it would not be on show horses kept mostly indoors most of their adult lives.

    People around here still had those horses at times, they are flashy.
    Breeders would not breed purposeful for them, in fact minimal white was preferred.
    Some of it was the thought of white feet being less strong, that has been disproved.

    One other paint breeder here had tobiano lines and some were APHA champions.
    He too stayed away from too much white and definitely from blue eyes.
    Genetics are so much better understood today, it is a whole different ballgame for breeders.

    One advantage of years of breeding and being around all lines of horses performing is that you get an idea of what you have and what you may get when you breed.
    I think anyone starting to breed should pick the brains of all that came before.
    We have enough haphazardly bred horses out there today that no one has any use for, coming on a horse market that is more sophisticated and doesn't want them.
    Buyers are very picky any more.

    I would consider seriously before keeping a horse a stallion, for his own sake, his life will be so much easier as a gelding.
    Gelding is considered good management.
    There are many fashionably bred stallions standing at stud with a performance record and their foals for sale.
    That is how this horse happen to be born.
    Not many of the sons and grandsons of proven stallions should reproduce just because their breeding somewhere back there has some proven, well known sires.

    Breeding more horses into a world with too many already seems a bit selfish today, when anyone can buy another like that one easily.

    Breeding should be more than an emotional decision, the "I love my dog so much, I want a puppy from her" sentiment, not realizing that there are already oodles of similar puppies out there.

    Those are questions I would give serious consideration before keeping him a stallion.

    Old time ranch breeders used a stallion for a few years and about ten, when they started keeping fillies off that stallion old enough to reproduce, they would geld it and they made great geldings.

    Agree 100%!



  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cripplecreekfrm View Post
    I have a great yearling pony baby that is a saint so far. I would like someone to explain his bloodlines to me because I'm kinda just lost.

    here is his pedigree.
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/smokes+ace

    any insite would be greatly appreciated.
    that is some SMOKING working cattle blood in that pedigree...

    minus his mama's bottom line which is just Sonny Dee Bar (nice to look at but *yawn* other wise)

    I have had under me at various times sons or daughters or grand get of 5 of the animals in that pedigree...

    is he a stallion prospect? dunno....but for ridden working blood you could do far far worse in today's QH's (and paints). well done.

    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    May. 23, 2012
    Posts
    49

    Default

    One local paint breeder kept having several such foals, he could see how bad those horses were, cancer eye common in them, so he finally quit breeding paints.
    To date I do not believe there are any studies proving this..
    I had a blue eyed Tovero Paint mare that born/raised and rode all day by me in the sandy hot Mojave desert and she never had any issues with her blue eyes...

    http://www.doubledilute.com/article.htm

    Your stallion should be tested for LWO and SW before bred to anything....those lines are known to carry both, that being said it has been proven that a horse can be completely solid and still be LWO and SW positive....So in other words a horses phenotype is not always a representative of its genotype.

    Thankfully today because of genetic testing we don't have to rely on old wives tales and trial and error.

    http://colorgenetics.info/equine/gal...g2_keyword=LWO

    http://colorgenetics.info/equine/for...ortant-it-test

    http://colorgenetics.info/equine/for...hed-white-page


    He is a nice horse, but so nice that he just has to be bred, I would have to say not, especially in todays market.
    Last edited by RRD; Jun. 22, 2012 at 11:49 AM.
    APHA I CD SPOT
    APHA BDB FASHION DESIGN
    http://www.facebook.com/alicia.cuver...icia.cuvertino



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    162

    Default

    Yep, I would have him tested before breeding, just so you know ... with the Doc Olena, and Sonny Dee Bar, I would sure test him. HERDA, GBED, PSSM, OLWS

    The stallion he is sired by use to stand in Texas until he was bought by Pete Bowling at Oasis Ranch Inc. They have an exceptional cowhorse program; unfortunately the horse died before they really got to promote him. He did get his QH papers, but with your horse's dam, your horse wouldn't be eligible for QH papers. Still, Cutters Smoke was a nice, well bred horse.

    I know a lot of people who don't like the Gunsmoke line, but there are just as many who do like it ... to me, you can't be any kind of Leo horse. And I love the old QH bloodlines.

    His dam doesnt' really excite me, but she is a maternal half sister to a ROM Reining and Working Cowhorse. She may have more records in the NCHA or NRHA...so it's kind of hard to tell from the APHA records.

    I think your guy is cute Reminds me of my senior stallion ... I love a 'headlight and chrome wheels'



  10. #10
    Join Date
    May. 23, 2012
    Posts
    49

    Default

    HERDA, GBED, PSSM
    ......yes I was going to ad while your at it....

    I agree with spotsinabox on Leo horses, they are my favorite....can't wait for Frank Holmes to finish his book on him, waiting patiently for it...


    Mr Gunsmoke is featured in legends volume 3, I don't see it on Franks website but I'm sure it's still get a hold of it somewhere. Poco Lena is also in volume 3. I have his email, so I could ask him for you if you want, he may have some kicking around in his office.

    http://www.loftent.com/
    APHA I CD SPOT
    APHA BDB FASHION DESIGN
    http://www.facebook.com/alicia.cuver...icia.cuvertino



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 4, 2004
    Location
    E. Washington
    Posts
    734

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by spotnnotfarm View Post
    Agree 100%!
    If he is a calm and nice stallion, he will be an OUTSTANDING GELDING. Nice bloodlines, his picture doesn't show anything that stands out to me as high quality stallion, nice horse, but not what I would consider breeding to. I do have a breeding quality AQHA mare that I have no desire to breed either, just to clarify.

    If you are having fun now, you will have a blast after he's gelding.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr. 19, 2011
    Location
    Madison, GA
    Posts
    2,947

    Default

    Good stallion = great gelding!

    I agree with the poster above, all the fun you're having now will be even better once he's gelded.
    Southern Cross Guest Ranch
    An All Inclusive Guest Ranch Vacation - Georgia
    www.southcross.com
    RIP Bocephus March 2008 - April 2013



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr. 24, 2010
    Posts
    271

    Default

    Thanks for the information guys it is much appreciated.

    Bluey - this guy doesn't have the eye issues that come with most blue eyed guys as the area around his eyes have black skin. He also isn't light sensitive at all. He lives out 24/7 with the heard of geldings and the only special care he gets is a long nosed flymask in the summer because his nose will burn & its easier than slathering him with sunscreen. He is great but now what I' worried about with gelding him is that he is so laid back and quiet as a stallion I'm scared that he will be a plug and I won't enjoy him once he is gelded. He isn't standing stud and he isn't just breeding to be bred but I just don't really see a reason for him to be gelded at this point. No one knows he isn't a gelding when he goes out in public and if that ever changes he will definitely be cut. I'm glad to be able to get everyone's opinions on him & I am having a blast with him.
    Member of the Standardbreds with Saddles Clique!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by cripplecreekfrm View Post
    Thanks for the information guys it is much appreciated.

    Bluey - this guy doesn't have the eye issues that come with most blue eyed guys as the area around his eyes have black skin. He also isn't light sensitive at all. He lives out 24/7 with the heard of geldings and the only special care he gets is a long nosed flymask in the summer because his nose will burn & its easier than slathering him with sunscreen. He is great but now what I' worried about with gelding him is that he is so laid back and quiet as a stallion I'm scared that he will be a plug and I won't enjoy him once he is gelded. He isn't standing stud and he isn't just breeding to be bred but I just don't really see a reason for him to be gelded at this point. No one knows he isn't a gelding when he goes out in public and if that ever changes he will definitely be cut. I'm glad to be able to get everyone's opinions on him & I am having a blast with him.
    When we only had one stallion, we kept him with the geldings, he was not even boss.
    We used our stallions just like any other ranch horse, even when helping the neighbors, they were so dependable and we were confident they would not act up at all.
    Now, if we had more than one breeding age stallion, they were a bit more alert and up and that was a little different.
    Some ranch breeders keep several stallions together in the winter and turn each one with their herd in the spring, but they know the stallions will be somewhat more easy to excite.

    There is no problem keeping one good minded, well trained stallion around 99% of the time.
    It is that one time things may go wrong, when someone may leave a gate open, when a mare somewhere may be in heat that we didn't know about and someone walked her right under his nose, who knows when, but we would not keep a stallion around we were not using for breeding because of that one possible time things go South.

    Each one of us has different ideas how to manage our horses and that is fine.



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