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  1. #21
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    Well for once I can say the TB industry does one thing right. They require live cover which (for very good reasons) eliminates this very issue from being a concern. Specifically, I was referring only to WB breeding and the rule from the fei.



  2. #22
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    Where is bayhawk? This certainly has to be sending the holshsteiner people into a complete tizzy!!!!!



  3. #23
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    Nurture is my biggest problem with the whole thing. I know semen doesn't get nurtured to me but there has to be more to it than simply dna.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    What was stolen?? Again it's not illegal to clone and if you use material taken from horse while on a show ground, what law was broken.

    Yup could certainly happen now. But until I whip out my very own cassini-clone I doubt many breeders are thinking like I am. And they should.

    Perhaps stallion and mare owners need to start copyrighting their animals. Hum new niche market for you lawyers out there.
    I believe that is where this is going to go.
    It would also control semen use if the genetics of the horses registered are more closely recorded. But the registries are going to have to be on board with this.
    As far as competition, I do think it is a bit of an issue. While training is very important, the animal still has to have the innate physical ability. If we didn't believe this we wouldn't pay more for one stallion over another. I bet a clone of Secretariat would still kick ass, his heart was huge. Jumping requires more of a learned skill set and dressage even more but if you start with an animal that you know is physically capable of doing the job, you are ahead of the game. I wonder if Eric would prefer a clone of Hickstead or not? It would be a different horse in some ways but in some the same. Breeders always say how similar the foals of a mare are and many riders prefer certain bloodlines because they know what to expect. A clone would give you even more insight into the training if you were familiar with the original. I am waiting to see a Ratina Z clone compete.



  5. #25
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    There is also the issue of only cloning the “great” horses and losing the diversity and value of breeding better horses. So for example if every team is made up of clones of Totilas, Jazz or Jerich Parzival what will that mean to competition and what will happen to the next “best” generation ... I don’t think that this is a good thing for horses and the sport in general. However will clarify and say a great gelding or mare that never got to reproduce should not in my opinion be allow to complete (for the above reasons) but should be allowed to contribute to the breed. The success of their progeny will provide the “value” of the mating.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    For ME, the big hoopla is being able to use/continue genetics that were lost. Gem Twist is from a very, very good line of TBs that wasn't widely used and there are soooo very few of them left.

    I don't see ANY value in putting them in the show ring. Sure, you can have fun doing it, but it doesn't add anything constructive to the genetic pool.

    I have never understood the fuss about allowing them to compete
    I'm with you, JB!!
    Erin
    Dodon Farm - Home of Salute The Truth, Thoroughbred Stallion and on Facebook
    The Retired Racehorse Training Project, a 501(c)3 Non profit organization.



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    What was stolen?? Again it's not illegal to clone and if you use material taken from horse while on a show ground, what law was broken.

    Yup could certainly happen now. But until I whip out my very own cassini-clone I doubt many breeders are thinking like I am. And they should.

    Perhaps stallion and mare owners need to start copyrighting their animals. Hum new niche market for you lawyers out there.
    Actually theft of human genetic material for other than law investigation purposes is illegal in many places. Even farmers who save seed from their own crops when using genetically altered plants have also been successfully sued for gene theft.

    I expect that this sort of cloning would be treated similarly to a mare owner sneaking their mare into a stallions paddock.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChelseaR View Post
    Actually theft of human genetic material for other than law investigation purposes is illegal in many places. Even farmers who save seed from their own crops when using genetically altered plants have also been successfully sued for gene theft.

    I expect that this sort of cloning would be treated similarly to a mare owner sneaking their mare into a stallions paddock.
    Big AG spent considerable $$$ to patent their seed DNA. That is the only reason they are allowed to sue anyone who happens to have the misfortune of having a cross polinization issue in their field. Monstanto is the biggest POS ag company.

    Horse DNA is not protected under the law, UNTIL stallion and mare owners realize they need to do so. That is the only way they have recourse against the low lifes who will one day try to capitalize on their blood, sweat, tears and lets not forget $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ spent.



  9. #29
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    If they don't make up some type of regulation what prevents me from grabbing some Flexible or Sapphire skin and making my own. 150k would be cheap.



  10. #30
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    I am sure I could come up with several legal theories that I'd bet would stand up in court if someone stole my horse's DNA to get their own clone of my horse. It's no different than stealing semen or eggs. The common law evolves to meet new circumstances all the time.



  11. #31
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    unless you also clon the rider/trainer who made the original issue of the clon "big" cloning won't bring you anything but regress in breeding.
    would i breed to ETclon?
    never.
    would i clon hugo simon and give him my crazy jumping prospect noone else could deal with before?
    i certainly would, in a heartbeat!



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    I am sure I could come up with several legal theories that I'd bet would stand up in court if someone stole my horse's DNA to get their own clone of my horse. It's no different than stealing semen or eggs. The common law evolves to meet new circumstances all the time.
    And what legal theory would that be?



  13. #33
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    Theft of property for one. Other torts like misappropriation, maybe.



  14. #34
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    I guess the real question is..Is cloning genetic manipulation?

    If so, Then clones should not be allowed to compete in the Olympics..since WADA and IOC do not allow genetic manipulation of athletes,and horses are classed as athletes.

    Another point to bear in mind,is that a clone is actually the age of its original parent..Dolly the sheep was cloned from a 6 year old ewe. So add 6 to whatever age she was when she died and that is her correct age. Premature ageing ??

    Just a thought!



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverotter View Post
    I must confess, I don't understand the hoopla against breeding them either. No, it's not natural, but really, anything except live cover is not natural.
    Collecting semen and AIing so that a stallion has hundreds of foals a year - not natural.
    Embryo transfer so a mare can have more then 1 foal a year - not natural.
    Shipping semen (or embryos!) "across the pond" so that lots of people can have a baby from this horse or that, when there's no way they'd get that breeding otherwise - not natural.

    Using frozen semen from a stud who has died or was gelded is using genetics that were lost. I completely fail to see the difference that makes these things ok, and breeding to a clone not.

    I can see how someone would see value in showing a clone. It's the nature vs nurture thing. I, personally, can ride a spooky, rearing fool, and in a month or two that beasty will be mellow and calm with all feet on the ground so long as I am on him - it doesn't make him less an airhead to begin with, it was only me.

    Conversely, if you were to give me a clone of <insert uber, spectacular horse here> and we made it to the Grand Nationals - you would know that this was 99.9% the horse and all I did was steer a little and not fall off, kwim?

    Horses are gelded for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with them. I know that I am not at this time able to raise a colt as a stallion prospect, I can't afford the RPSI evaluation and frankly, it would be too big a PITA for me to set up to keep stud colts as stud colts past about the age of 2 maximum.
    I'm expecting a foal this year and 2 next year and if they are colts and here long enough to start training, they'll be gelded by then. It has nothing to do with their quality, I think they'll be great and I hope they'll be even better then I expect (don't we all ) and everything to do with my farm lay-out.
    If the the heavens open and the angels sing and the horse world is blessed with something I bred that turns out amazing (and then gelded because it is easier for me to keep a gelding) and people look longingly at him and think "oh, if only". Why not?
    LOL, ok, it's unlikely, but I don't understand the uproar.
    So well written! The only thing I can add is that folks keep claiming the clones wont be as good as the original....but if you don't let them compete how do you know that is true? Now if the registries will paper them is a whole different issue. Most folks wont breed to them based on lack of papers alone/ a few will. If the clone does do well in competition then it will be like a successful grade horse if the registry wont paper it.....some folks will then breed to him papers or not. If the stalllion is issued full papers too.....now that would be a game changer in terms of volume used at stud.I don't personally plan to run out and use a clone....but if it was a nearly lost bloodlines as mentioned in an earlier post would I someday consider it? Possibly.



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by belambi View Post
    I guess the real question is..Is cloning genetic manipulation?

    If so, Then clones should not be allowed to compete in the Olympics..since WADA and IOC do not allow genetic manipulation of athletes,and horses are classed as athletes.
    What is the IOC's definition of "genetic manipulation"?

    what I can quickly find is this:
    "“As we go forward, they are more and more confident that they will have a non-invasive test that will allow us to determine whether or not there has been artificial manipulation,” said Dick Pound, IOC member and former head of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).

    Gene therapy has been around for years, but remains largely untested. It involves inserting new DNA into the body’s cells to correct genetic flaws that cause disease.

    To increase performance, it is believed that dopers are trying to develop a method for increasing levels of a naturally occurring hormone through genetic manipulation."

    In that context, cloning is not at all gene manipulation/therapy. The clone has all the same genetics as the original. The ONLY difference is the clone has a different set of mitochondrial DNA, as that comes from the dam.

    Another point to bear in mind,is that a clone is actually the age of its original parent..Dolly the sheep was cloned from a 6 year old ewe. So add 6 to whatever age she was when she died and that is her correct age. Premature ageing ??

    Just a thought!
    Not an issue any more. It WAS an issue early on (even then Dolly died of a common sheep disease, not premature old age). Cloning now is done from "baby" cells, to correct the original issue with telomere length.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareen View Post
    Am very laid back about this as I am 100% sure the clones won't get anywhere near the originals for a variety of reasons.
    I think it's the exact opposite... in the right hands, the clones likely stand a BETTER chance of excelling, than did the originals. Why? Because the latter were a well known/studied item.

    Think about it: Gem was started relatively late, switched owners/riders throughout his early years, and then became a project of a 19yr-old who was just getting his feet wet at the international level. Greg Best went on to become one of the greatest riders in the world, everyone knows that, but he wasn't at the time Gem was coming up. Imagine, for Gem, if he was.

    ...now, consider Gemini. Growing up under the eye/care of Frank Chapot, who knew everything there was to know about Gem. If Gemini proves to be even remotely like Gem, in terms of movement, personality/temperament, fears, difficulties, etc-- Frank would know about it, and be able to tailor Gemini's training to address those issues early on, possibly even avoiding some of them altogether. Then combine that with the fact that Laura is already a well-seasoned GP rider, not a rookie as she was with Gem. There's another advantage for Gemini.

    So in summary, while there's only a snowball's chance of any horse moving up the ranks to become an FEI level champion... if ANY horse has it, it's this one.
    A vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire.
    ~ImmortalSynn



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I am dead set against cloning as I am a nature/nurture proponent
    That makes no sense whatsoever.

    If you're a "proponent" of nature vs. nurture, then you should be the biggest fan of cloning.... as there's no better way to observe the interaction between the two!
    A vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire.
    ~ImmortalSynn



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    Lets say someone sneaks into Totilas stall at a show and snips a bit of his DNA and produces a Totilas clone
    So they're going to slice the horse's chest open and peel back muscle/fat layers? Hmm, won't that be a tad messy.

    Because right now, and for the foreseeable future, about the only particularly valuable material for cloning an equine, would be the epithelial tissues between the skin/fat/muscle layers deep inside the chest.... taking THAT out in any sort of rushed/secretive manner, would leave a mark, to say the least.

    ************
    That said, your scare scenario doesn't need cloning at all to occur. Overzealous natural breeding to just a few stallions could/would produce the same effect. Cloning would just be an agent to speed it up. At the end of the day, it just comes down to a matter of conceptual discipline--- cloning, per se, really has nothing to do with that.
    A vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire.
    ~ImmortalSynn



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