[Mukluk]

Color wise, what might result? Just curious. Thanks in advance to anyone who can comment on this.

[pinto power]

Well....it depends!
You will need to know the agouti status of both parents...and the heterozygous/homozygous status of the tobiano parent.
If the pinto parent is homozygous for the tobiano gene you will get a tobiano…if heterozygous only 50% chance of tobiano.
The chestnut is genetically ee ..the black and white pinto...if he/she is true black is EE.
You need more information to truly predict the outcome!
Try using the color calculator at this site
http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
Martha

[Mukluk]

Don't know anything other than phenotype of the two. I have a Chestnut TB mare and friend suggested I check out a Tobiano Danish Warmblood stallion (who is black and white). Definitely at the "just looking" stage but wondered what colors could be possible. I suppose it really doesn't matter- no good horse is a bad color. But all things being equal a pretty color would be nice!

[Appsolute]

you will need to know a bit more to get a real idea of what your chances of various colors are.

You can play with the color combos on this website.

From what you have told us, rough estimate breaks down as follows:

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp

Offspring Color Probability

16.67% -Black Tobiano
16.67% -Black
16.67% -Bay Tobiano
16.67% -Bay
16.67% -Chestnut Tobiano
16.67% -Chestnut

[camohn]

In the WBs: the tobiano tends to be closely attached to the black....so your odds of getting a pinto foal are better on a black/bay than a chestnut foal. So...it also depends on if the stallion carries a recessive red as well.....if the stallion is homozygous tobi then odds are he is also homozygous for black.

[MysticOakRanch]

I'm going to say the opposite of Camohn here... In general, chestnut allows color patterns through more then black does, so your odds are more likely to get color from a chestnut mare then a black mare. Black often suppresses pattern (pinto AND appy).

As already mentioned, without knowing more about the black pinto, it is hard to give accurate color prediction. If you use a horse like Sempatico, who is homozgous for pinto (and I'm pretty sure for black as well), you WILL get a black and white foal - but remember, bay is a form of black, so if your mare has bay agouti hidden away somewhere, you could get a bay and white or black and white.

If you use a non-homozygous (for pinto and black), Appsolute is right, you have a lot of different possibilities. I've bred my chestnut mare to my black pinto stallion (who is non-homozygous for pinto or chestnut), and gotten two chestnut and white pintos. Bred her to Nico a few years back, and also got a chestnut and white pinto. Again, chestnut is more likely to allow a pattern through.

The more you know about the parent's color genetics, the more accurate you can get predicting the offspring's color.

[JB]

In the WBs: the tobiano tends to be closely attached to the black....so your odds of getting a pinto foal are better on a black/bay than a chestnut foal.

True, but it's crossed enough times we'd really need to know the parentage of this b/w pinto. Even then we wouldn't know for sure if both parents were Tobi and one of those was chestnut.

if the stallion is homozygous tobi then odds are he is also homozygous for black.

Chestnut tobi x black tobi can easily result in Ee To? so it really goes back to the previous comment - need to know the parents. However, this would be true (as in "odds are") if both parents were black-based Tobis AND warmbloods then the odds are 93% a ToTo is also EE. Well, probably not quite 93% as each parent had a 7% chance of sending eTo instead of Eto if they crossed over.

I'm going to say the opposite of Camohn here... In general, chestnut allows color patterns through more then black does, so your odds are more likely to get color from a chestnut mare then a black mare. Black often suppresses pattern (pinto AND appy).

This isn't applicable to the Tobiano pattern, just the Overo (splash, frame, sabino, dominant white) and Appy patterns Those patterns are incomplete dominants and rely on other factors which allow or suppress or enhance expression.

Tobiano will, with very rare exceptions (and less rare in minis, those strange creatures LOL) be absolutely visible and apparent, and its expression is not reliant on black-based vs re-based

I do agree with the rest in that your options are very much in the air right now not knowing whether the w/b pinto is homozygous black, and not knowing the Agouti status of the chestnut.

Right now you could get black, bay/brown, or chestnut, and a 50% chance of a Tobi. The odds of Tobi on each of those colors is going to depend on who the stallion is. Tobiano is generally attached to the e on the Extension locus, but in most WB lines it got attached to the E. Each breeding has a 7% chance that attachment will flip. This has produced chestnut WB tobianos from a non-tobi parent and a black-based hetero tobi parent. The Samber line tobis are largely E-To connected.

If the stallion is hetero black, Ee, then bred to a chestnut ee you have a 50/50 chance at a chestnut, and if this stallion is an E-To guy, then that chestnut has a 93% chance of being non-tobi. The other 50% is split between black and bay, and whether black is a possibility entirely depends on the chestnut's Agouti status. If it's AA, then no black is possible, and it's 50/50 chestnut/bay, with the chestnut 93% likely to be solid, and the bay having a 50/50 shot of being tobi/solid

[MysticOakRanch]

True, but it's crossed enough times we'd really need to know the parentage of this b/w pinto. Even then we wouldn't know for sure if both parents were Tobi and one of those was chestnut.


Chestnut tobi x black tobi can easily result in Ee To? so it really goes back to the previous comment - need to know the parents. However, this would be true (as in "odds are") if both parents were black-based Tobis AND warmbloods then the odds are 93% a ToTo is also EE. Well, probably not quite 93% as each parent had a 7% chance of sending eTo instead of Eto if they crossed over.


This isn't applicable to the Tobiano pattern, just the Overo (splash, frame, sabino, dominant white) and Appy patterns Those patterns are incomplete dominants and rely on other factors which allow or suppress or enhance expression.

Tobiano will, with very rare exceptions (and less rare in minis, those strange creatures LOL) be absolutely visible and apparent, and its expression is not reliant on black-based vs re-based

Maybe part of the reason the chestnut allows more expression of color is that many of the "tobianos" also have something else going on (such as splash and sabino)? I can't think of any popular pinto stallions right now that don't have at least one other pattern besides tobi (and it is evidenced by color under their jaws, snips on their lower lips, face markings, etc). Everyone I talk to who has bred for color sees the pattern of more color with chestnut mares? What do you think?

[JB]

I agree, it's VERY hard to find Tobis without some overo pattern going on, usually splash and/or sabino. I also have a suspicion that splash enhances a Tobiano pattern and fairly predictably. If you look at many of the Tobi Warmbloods, a great many of them seem to have white that really encompasses the whole shoulder.

But I see a great many black-based tobis who are quite loud.

Now, get into other breeds and I agree, the red-based ones do seem louder as a whole and likely due to Overo patterns being expressed

[Mukluk]

For what it's worth the Chestnut mare is a TB (father was a bay, don't know about momma). The Black and white stallion is a Danish Warmblood.

[JB]

Who's the stallion? It just might help figuring out the extension/tobi connection

[MysticOakRanch]

Who's the stallion? It just might help figuring out the extension/tobi connection

Plus, those of us who enjoy color want to see him

[JB]

Amen!

[camohn]

I'm going to say the opposite of Camohn here... In general, chestnut allows color patterns through more then black does, so your odds are more likely to get color from a chestnut mare then a black mare. Black often suppresses pattern (pinto AND appy). .

in other breeds and other color patterns...yes....but specifically in tobiano warmbloods....no. Tobi WBs (and most are from Samber/Tina lines) specifically tend to have tobi/black travel together. You will be hard pressed to find a chestnut tobiano warmblood. They are out there....but in the vast minority.
JB explained it more in the post below this one/no need to repeat it.

[JB]

It's not toooo hard to find a chestnut Tobi WB, especially when it's a stallion who ends up with the 7% crossover and then produces offspring Umenno is one, and as a result he's got quite a few red-based tobis on the ground now.

One of his sons, Solaris Buenno, is bay, homozygous for Tobi, but not for black, and he too has several chestnut tobis (and lots more going on, they are REALLY cool to look at) on the ground

http://www.solaris-sport-horses.co.u...stallion.shtml

There are a few more out there too

[Mukluk]

Stallion's name is Juss For The Taste and he is in CA. He is a Danish Warmblood who is half TB. My mare is a full TB. I am supposed to be getting some pictures from the owner but I'll see if I can find anything on the internet.
....... Can't seem to find a picture but here is his pedigree.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/juss+for+the+taste


and this is my mare's pedigree
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pe...ts_indicator=Y

The owner says that he crosses well with Slew horses. Hoping for an eventing baby for me. And I'll probably not want to go beyond prelim. Probably not going to breed my mare for another year or two.

[MysticOakRanch]

in other breeds and other color patterns...yes....but specifically in tobiano warmbloods....no. Tobi WBs (and most are from Samber/Tina lines) specifically tend to have tobi/black travel together. You will be hard pressed to find a chestnut tobiano warmblood. They are out there....but in the vast minority.
JB explained it more in the post below this one/no need to repeat it.

Oh, I realize the Samber connection - but there are so many crosses back to that line - I've got pictures on my website of three chestnut tobis, all from Samber based stallions (Nico and my own Cadence In Color). I've seen a few others just at local shows, and of course, all are Samber lineage. I agree, there are more bays and blacks, but the chestnuts are out there. I think most of them have splash or sabino as well - my experience has been more color with my chestnut breedings then my bay and blacks, and when I DO get color from a bay or black mare, there tends to be less of it (versus my chestnut mares who really let the white come through), so maybe this is due to the sabino/splash? Ah, the joys of color genetics!

OP, I think I have SEEN your stallion - the name is really familiar! I am in CA (northern), so maybe at a show?

[JB]

Oh, I have not heard of this guy!! There's a (poor) picture of him on the pedigree site but it does at least show the cool pattern he has. FWIW, he's also quite Splash, as well as Tobi.

I am not familiar with his dam line. Does anyone have any info on Swap (not Swaps, unless allbreed is wrong) the TB stallion?

Also, I'm not familiar with Jasper - he looks to have a really nice jump and I wonder if he's got any Hunter connections down the line

[pinto power]

Hummmm....
I believe Juss for the Taste is a Dutch stallion not Danish...not papered KWPN tho...No he is not 1/2 TB...his dam did have a lot of TB blood tho.
I bought a daughter of his some years ago, in 1999 I believe. She was 5yrs old at the time I bought her at ....subsequently I sold her in foal to the Maritimes.
I am given to understand that Juss was not registered with any registry including PtHA as there were 'issues' with his papers.
I would have thought he was older?
Martha

[camohn]

actually Juss is half TB...each Dutch parent is half TB.
He is Dutch (by breeding) and he is a Samber line.
I remember looking at him a few years back. I just can't remember much about him....it does bother me that the PQ photo posted of him is heavily/obviously photoshopped.
I can't seem to find any stallion at stud ads for Juss...the 2 I found with an internet search are no longer there when you click on the link. I did find 2 horses for sale by Juss and they are both advertised as registered AWS.
And there is this guy
http://gallantfarms.homestead.com/Audacious.html
he is listed at stud/foals eligible for registry with AWS as well.