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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by JmpR_1 View Post
    Why did she warm up his horse, and not hers? I'm, confused Seems a little odd to me

    Sorry for not being clear. Other people were warming up HER horses as she had 3 horses in a fairly small field. I don't believe she was warming up his horses.



  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexS View Post
    Sorry for not being clear. Other people were warming up HER horses as she had 3 horses in a fairly small field. I don't believe she was warming up his horses.
    Ok that makes more sense



  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    Adopting the FEI rules would assure that riders and horses would be set down.
    Thus trainers would be scrutinized more closely by their clients, (oh, you've had clients set down for drugged horses? no, sorry, don't want to train with you. I don't want myself or my horse suspended, my name being brought into it).
    It makes everyone responsible.
    If you can afford to pay a trainer and to show your horses, than you should have an inkling about the rules that govern what you are doing, and insist on having a trainer who follows the rules.

    A trainer who's clients are being set down will not stay in business.
    Afraid you are a little naive.
    The drug fines/suspensions were published in the USEF magazine for years. This is not secret information.
    Now they are available online going back for 5 years or so.
    Public information and it does not stop anyone from training with trainers with multiple violations. As long as the trainer has a winning record they continue to have clients flock to them.



  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by dab View Post
    I watched Beezie flat Urico before the Wednesday night class at Devon -- She had him going so nicely -- When Mario got on, the contrast was huge -- I didn't make it down to the Gold Ring on Thu or Sat to see the warmup, so I'm not sure who warmed the horse up for the selection classes -- Anybody know is Beezie rides the horse regularly?
    THAT's interesting. A while back I was mourning the days when the team owned the horses and could parcel them out at will. What I didn't say here then and DID say on my FB page was, if that were still the case, I'd have Mario off the team completely, put Beezie on Urico, and give Simon to Charlie Jayne (Experiment #1) or Kent (Experiment #2). Good to know I was right on one third of it anyway!

    The problem with the whole "it was only a trace element" thing is that THAT is turning into the "dog ate my homework" excuse of the ULRs. See: "the groom mixed the buckets up". Even if it's completely true, NOBODY would believe it at this point; that card's been played far too often.



  5. #125
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    I am a pretty savvy USEF site user. It is not easy to find the reasons that offenders are out of play. I am sure that is by design.And most recently we have the Jane Clark incident. Where is her name when all other owners are listed? I have no agenda with her, like her. But she should not be a sacred cow if we are truly enforcing rules. Frankly I think Mario is just a used up rider trying to make a living on Jane's paycheck. He doesn't ride well enough, and he obviously doesn't train well enough when Bruce has to tkae the hit for his bad decisions. Maybe that job is not so fun???
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  6. #126
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    Jan. 13, 2012
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    IMO, Jane made a huge mistake when she took her horses away from Molly Ashe and gave them to Mario. I've never seen Molly put a bad ride on any horse.

    I haven't been able to check on which horses were suspended, but Bruce owns a lot of ponies that were his dads and I think some of the hacks at FHC are still in his name. It is my understanding that the horse with the positive test was one of the FEI horses and I'm pretty sure Bruce doesn't own anything of that caliber, unless the ownership was purposely put in his name precisely because this had the potential to be an issue.

    ETA: just checked, all the suspended horses are ancient ponies and the like. A few of those names, I know are leased out to other people for short stirrup, etc and one or two are still at FHC as school horses. None of Jane Clark's horses are on the suspended list....
    Last edited by NoobieDoo; Jun. 18, 2012 at 09:47 AM.



  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    Afraid you are a little naive.
    The drug fines/suspensions were published in the USEF magazine for years. This is not secret information.
    Now they are available online going back for 5 years or so.
    Public information and it does not stop anyone from training with trainers with multiple violations. As long as the trainer has a winning record they continue to have clients flock to them.
    My point was, that if the client's horses and riders were being sent down as per the FEI rules,then trainers who drugged horses would not have clients flocking to them, as is now the case..



  8. #128
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    I have nothing to add to this other than I am now thoroughly confused as to when we are allowed to speculate and when we are not
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  9. #129
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    An overlooked point in this discussion - regardless of whether one thinks USEF should follow FEI's lead re: "person responsible" - USEF is not only the National Federation for all Olympic disciplines, but also the umbrella ruling body for other non-Olympic disciplines. The American Saddlebred comes to mind.

    No doubt there are USEF board members who have only a rudimentary knowledge of Hunters, or Elite level jumpers but are experts in their discipline and likely bring very different issues to the table.

    As another poster mentioned FEI does not have to consider the adult hunter/housewife; the AO Hunter rider/Mon. - Fri. full time job rider, the junior rider, etc. when drafting rules. They do have to consider the IOC and WADA.

    When USEF was mandated to - in disciplines which filter up to the International level such as jumpers, dressage and eventing - to adopt FEI anti - doping rules USEF made it abundantly clear the rule only applied to BANNED substances. (There is a significant difference in FEI language between a banned substance and a controlled substance. USEF does limit the use of controlled substances such as Banamine.) The reason for the clarification? Had USEF followed FEI's zero tolerance to the letter, there would have been a mutiny in the non Olympic disciplines.

    I think it impossible for USEF to make the rider the Person Responsible. Usually when USEF makes a ruling on a positive drug test resulting in suspension the trainer of record, the owners and all the owners horses are suspended as well as published.



  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post

    I think it impossible for USEF to make the rider the Person Responsible. Usually when USEF makes a ruling on a positive drug test resulting in suspension the trainer of record, the owners and all the owners horses are suspended as well as published.
    Are you sure about that? If that is true, then Mr. Burr must have been suspended for a positive drug test on one of his own horses or ponies, not one of Jane Clark's.

    When Sheik Mohammad (the husband of the FEI president ) was set down for six months in 2009, for a positive doping test on one of his endurance mounts, he argued that, being the ruler of Dubai and all, he could hardly be responsible for what his trainer gave the horses.. The FEI said, sorry you are the PR.
    Bet he switched trainers or made a royal fuss so it won't happen again.
    Having the rider responsible works quite well as a deterrent and I don't see why it would be "impossible"for USEF to do the same.
    The Sheik is definitely an amature/owner..
    Last edited by skydy; Jun. 18, 2012 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Spelling



  11. #131
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    "Usually" is the operative word in my post regarding what gets publicized.

    As mentioned, I believe USEF has to consider the majority of it's membership - which is not the small percentage of those who compete Internationally - when writing rules.



  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    ^^^^^right! It seems odd to defend someone who drugged a horse (who lived) and crucify a trainer whose pony died. Being nice does not make you unaccountable.
    ......
    Just like with John Edwards, being a scumbag does not make you guilty and being nice does not make you a fall guy , that would be "stupid" makes you a fall guy.
    Agree.
    And some of us wonder why the USEF can't get a handle on drug use/abuse in the show ring.
    Maybe the popularity contest is more powerful than the rules??



  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post
    "Usually" is the operative word in my post.
    Hmm, well maybe the horse and owner will be mentioned when the hearing results are posted on the USEF site..

    IF suspending the doped horse is usual ,and if horse did belong to Jane Clark, and wasn't suspended, then that is most definitely fishy..

    I still don't understand why having the rider as the PR would be unfair, just because a person was an amature and not competing at an international level. The FEI holds amatures responsible..
    Last edited by skydy; Jun. 18, 2012 at 11:22 AM.



  14. #134
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    Oooh! My post was deleted! Hitting to close to home I surmise ;-)
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 14-16, 2014



  15. #135
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    it is getting exceedingly tedious to continue to read all the posts comparing the FEI and the USEF. Over and over again it has been correctly pointed out that these two governing bodies are worlds apart.

    i will say for the record that i am a recovering cocaine addict of 28 years. i lost my farm, and nearly my life. yes, it does make you feel like you can fly, but you are dropping poop on everyone on the ground as you do so. i never could have quit, if not for the fact that i knew and still know that i will certainly die if i ever use again.

    SO, coming from the proverbial horse's mouth, i doubt if the legend regarding dollar bill contamination is true. no addict would ever unroll a bill they were finished using without licking the thing. i don't say this in jest, but from a profound knowlege that this is the way it is. the only people who wouldn't have had that experience would either be using straws ( think why mcdonald's has those HOSES now, they scrape the hell out of your sensitive nose) or are too well heeled to worry about waste, and therefore usually carry a nice silver spoon.

    as for the anesthetic qualities of cocaine, that is generally from the "cut".

    i am not proud of the place i put myself all those years ago, and my continued recovery requires that i NEVER be proud, lest i return to the road of death. i respect anyone who makes it to the other side, and lament those who do not.



  16. #136
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    does anyone know if cocaine is a generally and normally tested drug ? i know that specific tests are required for some drugs.......



  17. #137
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    Hearing info at USEF:

    HEARING COMMITTEE RULINGS
    Below are the official rulings reached by the Hearing Committee following hearings held in these matters and/or plea agreements made:

    This is official notice of actions taken by the United States Equestrian Federation, Inc. Hearing Committee on May 30, 2012.

    BRUCE BURR of Weston, CT, violated Chapter 4, GR409 of this Federation, in connection with the USEF Show Jumping Selection Trials & National Championship conducted during WEF 11 held March 21-24, 2012, in that he, as trainer, exhibited the horse URICO after it had been administered and/or contained in its body benzoylecgonine, ecgonine methyl easter and hydroxyl benzoylecgonine. For this violation of the rules, the Hearing Committee members present directed that pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1b and GR703.1f, BRUCE BURR, be found not in good standing, suspended from membership, and forbidden from the privilege of taking any part whatsoever in any Licensed Competition for two years, and is excluded from all competition grounds during Licensed Competitions for that period: (1) as an exhibitor, participant or spectator; (2) from participating in all Federation affairs and activities, (3) from holding or exercising office in the Federation or in any Licensed Competition; and (4) from attending, observing or participating in any event, forum, meeting, program, clinic, task force, or committee of the Federation, sponsored by or conducted by the Federation, or held in connection with the Federation and any of its activities. The two year suspension commenced on June 12, 2012 and will terminate at midnight on June 12, 2014. Any horse or horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his, or shown in his name or for his reputation, (whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter), shall also be suspended, pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1c. Furthermore, the Hearing Committee directed that BRUCE BURR be fined $1,000 pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1j. It was further directed that for this violation of the rules, JANE FORBES CLARK of New York, NY, as owner, must return for redistribution all trophies, prizes, ribbons, and monies, if any, won by URICO at said competition, and must pay a $300 fee to the competition in connection with this penalty pursuant to Chapter 4, GR406.15.



  18. #138
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    Thanks for posting the results of the hearing. I still think that is a long time off for BB and that Jane and horse got off to lightly. But that is just my just opinion.

    Now I think they had better bring the hammer down on E, Mandarino !!!!!



  19. #139
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    Wow- Jane got off light. I'm wondering, does BB have any previous USEF/FEI "convictions" that might warrant this huge penalty? (huge relative to the other penalties handed out to other participating parties)



  20. #140
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    Welcome to the highest levels of our sport (dead, drugged, depraved). What a disgrace. Hey parents line up to sign YOUR child up to participate in all the "fun".
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



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