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  1. #41
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
    Deal with it? Sorry, Beezer, that would be the professional and mature thing to do. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Cripes, yes ... what WAS I thinking?!??! Slaps self upside the head.

    The sad thing is, all that this crap is doing is reinforcing the outside perception that we horse people are a bunch of too-rich twits who have nothing better to do with our time and money than sit around and bicker. Now, I know that SOME people in the horse world fit that description [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] , but not all, not the majority. If the USET truly believes that that's how they want the rest of the world to perceive us, well ... I'm not gonna get in front of them if they want to pick up their dump trucks and leave our sandbox. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    ****Bulletin Board Goddess****
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  2. #42
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    This is making me ill.
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  3. #43
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    Dumb question, but I'm blonde soooooo. . .

    If they declare a vacancy, does that mean that this mess just continues?



  4. #44
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    YUP!!!

    Or as Bostonian suggested - the UET declares banckruptcy and "reoorganizes" under a new name - and with certain persons money behind them, they try for it....

    YUK
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  5. #45
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    We are watching the competitor and letting them convince us of their superiority.

    Just a little dash of reality please. Why assume that the USET which is so blantantly incompetent that they couldn't even follow the law regarding how to manage their own programs becomes brilliant? Let's better assume that their self-centered and ego-centric philosophies are what have defeated them so far. They haven't made one right move at the right time yet in this whole debacle.

    Why would they suddenly become such good insider traders? Why would they suddenly gain a genius mentality? I don't think so, all we have available are the rumors that they have started to create some insecurity and doubts on the side of the USAE, just a brain war and they are two cents short of a dollar.

    Look at their bargaining chips: 1. Out with Alan Balch (unachievable) 2. Cancel the 2nd part of a law suit they have already lost once and against the instructions of the USOC (unlikely) 3. They stay independent and are not required any oversight by USAE (equally unlikely) How is that intelligent?

    In their best case scenario, in their dreams for any justification at all would be that both get thrown out as NGB. If the USOC was thinking that way they would have done it until the hearings. The USOC didn't do that they left the USAE in as NGB. I believe they will give USAE a suitable period of time of have in place the International Divisions and the necessary athletes on all committees. Probation if you will! And at the end of that period they will finalize NGB because we know USAE can get it done.

    So the rumor that someone from the USOC said neither side will be "Happy" is equally explained and in an affirmative way.

    People who believe they are so important and singularly knowledgeable simply find it impossible to believe that any such program can be put in place without them. No doubt there has been a substantial pledge for mega dollars to the USOC which the USOC prefer not to lose but they are not suicidal. Any other decision could easily be raised to a higher court don't you think?

    I refuse to believe the the entire USOC and all of our Olympic movement is so taudry that it is totally for saale to the highest bidders. BUT, if they are let me tell you there will be the wrath of the Congress to deal with for them too.

    [This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 25, 2001 at 11:08 PM.]



  6. #46
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    Snowbird - good post and good points.

    The "rumour" that someone said "and neither side will like it" is not a rumour - it was a statement of fact during the hearings by Bill Stapleton, the Chair of the hearing committee.
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  7. #47
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    A very dear friend of mine who was my mentor in years past always said that a good decision was one where both sides lose something and neither goes home happy.

    A scenario where the USAE is on probation to prove it can implement suitable programs without the USET is a logical and fair proposition.

    We know the USET is not indispensible and the job will get done with or without the the advice and consent of the USET.



  8. #48
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
    Why would they suddenly gain a genius mentality?

    [This message was edited by Snowbird on Oct. 25, 2001 at 11:08 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And here I would have settled for paranoid:^)



  9. #49
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    IF we were to take a page from uset's management book we would set up the international division like this:

    endurance: Denny Emerson
    jumper: Robert Ridland
    eventing: David O'Connor
    dressage: Lendon Gray
    vaulting: Cindy Stys
    driving: Chester Weber
    reining: Kent Allen

    As has already been stated, Jimmy W is taken by Canada. Now Cindy may have not ever seen vaulting but she is lithe and intelligent. Kent, well, again intelligent and just looks like he could get into reining.
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  10. #50
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    and sigh.

    I am far from an expert rider and just muddle along. I hope to start riding again shortly and am setting humble goals for myself.

    I have been this way all my life. Even without a horse I consider myself a horsewoman.

    I have always looked up to our international riders as mentors. Even those from other countries, they are our teachers. It is why I watch OLN ewvery week. It is why we begged for Sydney coverage on TV.

    Once again those at the very tip top of the pile have lost sight of all of us down here on the bottom. You remember us don't you? The ones that go to shows and pay the fees. Not the AAA shows but the B and C shows that are the bread and butter of the sport.

    We are the ones that volunteer to help at shows. Keeping prices as low as possible in order to provide an outlet for our passion. Some of us are even bold enough to run and support FEI level shows. We were there , WHERE WERE YOU, OH ELETE RIDERS???

    I am tired of this. Mostly because it detracts from the common cause of our sport. I feel warry that we are going to get short changed. I feel like those in charge do not realise that there is a huge country here. Horse sport does not end at the Appalachian Mountains ( oh except for California).

    I cannot support the USET because I suspect that my humble donation would not hold up in an audit. Somebody has warm pockets. HOw could anyone worth paying 250,000.00 appear to be so ignorant of the form and function of their "company"?

    I am fearful that all of this is going to distract and dilute the function and service of the USAE. I have nothing but praise for them after having been involved with show management.

    Oh and by the way. All you elite riders and trainers who are giving testimony and opinions, I am keeping in mind your feelings. They will certainly determine where I spend my clinic monies.

    Thanks Portia, I understand the situation better. I think that is what is getting me grumpy.



  11. #51
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    Very well said.

    As for what may happen now, Snowbird is right that it is a very common tactic of judges, arbitrators, Hearing Examiners, and other conflict decision makers to try to encourage the parties to come to a mutually acceptable agreement by advising them that neither side is going to be happy with the decision.

    They do that because they know that in most instances, a settlement is the best way to achieve a long-term, workable solution that can set an environment for further amicable relations. In a settlement, no one wins or loses (or at least, neither side is labled a winner or a loser), and each side gets something out of the deal. If it goes to a verdict or the decision-maker is forced to issue a final decision, then there is either a winner and a loser, or there are two losers. There are no "win-wins."

    In this case, everyone but the USET leadership agrees that the best thing for the sport would be for the two organizations to join forces and work together. It seems that is not going to happen -- after all, it does take both sides being willing to do so to come to an agreement.

    So, I take the "neither side is going to be happy with the decision" with a small grain of salt, recognizing however that it may well be true.

    Under the Sports Act and the USOC Constitution, the USOC Board can take only one of 4 defined actions: (a) confirm the existing NGB, (b) declare the challenger as the new NGB, (c) declare that neither org meets the requirements to be the NGB and that therefore a vacancy exists, or (d) declare that the current NGB does not currently meet all the requirements for NGB status but that those deficiencies are of a nature that can be promptly remedied, and put the NGB on probation with directions to remedy the deficiencies.

    Assuming (as I must based on the evidence presented) that the USOC cannot name the USET as the NGB because of its financial mismanagement, if nothing else, then the big issues become what happens if the USOC declares a vacancy or puts USA Eq on probation.

    The problem with the probation option is that the deficiencies have to be relatively minor ones, and the USOC may well feel that the split in authority to train, fund, and field teams are not minor deficiencies and therefore probation is not an option.

    The problem for the USOC with declaring a vacancy is that then no one is the NGB, and the USOC has to assume the duties of the NGB for that sport. That situation would exist, with the USOC governing the sport, until either one of the existing organizations demonstrates that it currently meets all the requirements of NGB status, or until a new organization is established that meets all those requirements. Declaring a vacacy is a huge burden for the USOC, but it has done it before, with Shooting. Shooting is a much smaller and much less complicated sport than Equestrian, but we should not assume that the USOC will be afraid to declare a vacancy. They may do so in hopes that the vacancy will force the two orgs to work together to form the new organization.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  12. #52
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    Is there any reason why USA Eq should not immediately put into place the High Performance Division and assume, as the legal NGB for the sport, all of the functions previously performed by the USET?

    I ask this knowing full well the anger and dissent that this type of action would cause, however, it seems certain to me that doing so would be preferable to having a vacancy declared and having the USOC, esteemed as it may be, declared the interim NGB for a sport ...

    In the event that the USOC *does* take over for a time, how do they function? Do they adopt FEI rules? Use USAE officials? What about the drugs and meds program... doesn't the Fed lab carry the only FEI designation here????

    **********
    To appreciate heaven well
    'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
    Will Carleton (1845-1912)
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  13. #53
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    That would of course be disasterous for the sport. On the NJ gossip line - a USET employee said they have nothing to worry about the USOC is on their side!!! Could this be delusion or more in line with posts above.



  14. #54
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    The USET just issued this press release with their version, sort of, of why the settlement talks broke down. Once again, let's all say it in unison: "It's all the Evil Alan Balch's fault."

    USET Issues Statement On NGB Matter

    Gladstone, NJ--October 26, 2001. In response to the press release issued by the American Horse Shows Association (AHSA) on October 25, United States Equestrian Team (USET) President Dr. Armand Leone, Jr. has issued the following statement:

    "I believe that Mr. Balch has once again failed to clearly and fairly state the position of the USET Board of Trustees. On October 24, the Trustees, after long and significant discussion, voted on two motions. The first one was to authorize continued discussions with the AHSA without withdrawal of a pending motion in Mr. Balch's New Jersey lawsuit; this did not pass by a vote of 12 in favor and 16 opposed. The second motion was to authorize discussion with Mr. Balch provided the New Jersey lawsuit motion was withdrawn. This motion was passed unanimously by the Board, including by Mr. Balch who was a voting trustee on the call and did not object or abstain. Clearly there was a sense of cooperation and hope for settlement from the USET Trustees."

    "It is important to understand that the lawsuit filed by Mr. Balch was a personal lawsuit designed to derail the proceedings before the USOC. Now that the USOC Hearing Panel has concluded its proceedings, there is no reason for Mr. Balch not to have withdrawn his motion in the lawsuit which is over. The USET simply cannot continue to have discussions with an individual who professes to good faith negotiations on behalf of his organization while pressing on with personal litigation at the same time."

    "Furthermore, yesterday's assertion that the USOC challenge began all 'this litigation in the first place' ignores the fact that, prior to the filing of the challenge, the AHSA told the USOC in writing that they were prepared to immediately assume all responsibilities previously held by the USET. It was only after this attempt to strip the USET of all its duties and responsibilities that the challenge was filed."

    "Mr. Balch's actions, and the controversies that continue to plague him as President of the AHSA on so many fronts, should send a clear message to the equestrian community and the AHSA Membership especially. If Mr. Balch truly has the sport's interest at heart, he would have honored the USET Board's request and withdrawn the motion currently pending so that negotiations based on trust could continue."

    The USOC Board of Directors will receive the Hearing Panel's decision regarding the NGB status for Equestrian shortly so that they may confirm the decision. The parties will be made aware of the Hearing Panel's decision at that time.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  15. #55
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    EGADS!!!!!!!
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  16. #56
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    Ilona, it's funny, because those are the rumours I've heard since the USET filed the challenge, that the USET insiders were saying they had nothing to worry about because the USOC is on its side. And yes, those rumours worry me because those kind of statments are, in my mind, the equivalent to saying "the fix is in." I desperately hope that is not true.

    However, after attending the hearing and seeing the evidence of the financial quagmire into which the USET has sunk itself, I find it very hard to believe that any fix could be in that strong (to put it bluntly). How could the USOC possibly justify giving NGB status to an organization that is deep in debt and teetering on the verge of bankruptcy, all due to its own mismanagement and incomprehensible fiscal policies?

    The very first requirement for becoming an NGB is to prove you have the financial and managerial resources to perform the duties of the NGB.

    But you want to hear something really scary? I actually heard that one of the trustees on the USET conference call/meeting said that it's not the USET that's in financial trouble, it's really USA Eq that is deep in debt -- and that the USET didn't bring that out at the hearing because it wanted "to take the high road." Dear lord, how delusional do you have to be to believe something like that?
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  17. #57
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    Excuse me??
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"It is important to understand that the lawsuit filed by Mr. Balch was a personal lawsuit designed to derail the proceedings before the USOC. Now that the USOC Hearing Panel has concluded its proceedings, there is no reason for Mr. Balch not to have withdrawn his motion in the lawsuit which is over. The USET simply cannot continue to have discussions with an individual who professes to good faith negotiations on behalf of his organization while pressing on with personal litigation at the same time." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK - Perhaps it is time to discuss the FACT that the USET has mismanaged its assets to the point that there is only enough left for another two months of existance, and the FACT that they have HID this information from their BOARD and from their MEMBERS - which is illegal, immoral and indecent!

    Perhaps it is time for the USET Members to DEMAND some accountability! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  18. #58
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    Weatherford, the only heartening thing about the reports from the USET meeting is that 12 of the trustees actually went against the wishes of the chosen few and voted to continue the negotiations even if AB did not drop the NJ suit. Maybe some of them are starting to get the idea.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  19. #59
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    Portia - YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING????

    I am totally APPALLED!!!
    co-author of 101 Jumping Exercises & The Rider's Fitness Program; Soon to come: Dead Ringer - a tale of equine mystery and intrique! Former Moderator!



  20. #60
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    Or have Mr. Leone's statements always been so personally directed?

    Aren't two boards involved?
    Tinwhistle Farm



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