You folks sure are tough.
If I get indicted for a crime and choose a jury trial, I hope there are no horsefolks on my jury.
I could be the first inhaler to get the death penalty. Maybe they'll just degrade me on the Chronicle boards forever...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsluvr: Just because you don't face formal charges, it doesn't mean 'nothing' happened. It means it was plea bargained out of the judicial system to protect most probably the minor children involved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh, or maybe it means nothing happened... or maybe there wasn't enough evidence for investigators to be certain "beyond a reasonable doubt."
If formal charges weren't filed, as far as this board is concerned it didn't happen and the topic is completely off-limits.
Watch your step, folks... stick to issues, not individuals or individual incidents, please.
[This message has been edited by Erin (edited 05-16-2000).]
I realize this is a very sensitive issue we are discussing here but it is very important. I know it's not right to put the names of these people on a board but I do suggest that parents, kids, riders, etc do some seriously indepth researching on their trainers, grooms, etc. You can read my post in the drugs/alcohol column and although I never pressed charges, and just recently spoke out---if asked by a prospective client of his, or a current client, I will definitely share with them some of his downfalls. I always feared speaking out because of others not believing it and I realize that he wins that way. When things like this happen to you at a young age, it adversely effects your life for years. It completley consumes you, runs your life, makes your decisions, and that creep is walking around, searching for his next victim. Once I finally left that barn, all he did was spread horrible rumors about me, saying I was very sleezy, etc...all the while, he knew that I had never 'been with' another soul. I was so scared to speak out because I just figured no one would believe it. Some girl charging her trainer with these kind of accusations??? I just wish I could talk to each and every girl out there and warn them of this type of thing. The professional child molesters are very clever, they not only hurt you physically but emotionally and mentally. That's why it's so easy for them to get away with it. I don't mean to stand up here and preach but I really want to bring it to the attention of others that this is not a one in a million type of story. I have a few friends whom I later found out went through similar incidences--who left the industry as a whole because they couldn't deal with it any longer. I apologize if I have stepped on any toes or offended anyone, that has never been my intent. Thanks again for listening.
I think that as parents we have a real problem because we have mostly chosen this sport as a rather safe environment in which we can protect our children from the realities of a world which seems to be getting more and more ugly.
On the other hand there is this need to protect the culprits rather than the victims.
We give the children this opportunity to express love and responsibility. I have long worried over the fact that an attractive person who is friendly can make offers to children in this sport that would seduce them into believing that what is wrong is really right.
If the child believes that "winning" is everything and even the only thing to achieve excellence then we do the children a great diservice. We have created the fertile ground on which the predator stalks. Yes, it is true that a predator will take advantage of the sheltered child who wants to win with "promises". How many children would be able to say no! to someone who promised them the road to the Olympics?
So then, do we ban those who are predators or do we examine our principles which make the children vulnerable. I think we need to do both. I find it offensive that there are people out there known to be less than honest and yet are accepted as participants. I find it even more offensive that convicted predators are permitted to be in anyway in contact with the children who may become their future victims. I am tired of the idea that a horse thief needs to be protected from exposure, I am tired of the fact that a dishonest horse trader can be defended against anyone who publicly admonishes him. I am tired of the fact that we as potential victims cannot be shielded from contact with these people who violate the innocense of the children.
While there are people who defend their rights under our constituion and judicial law system, where are the advocates of the innocent victims of all these people.
[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 05-16-2000).]
\"in the wind, and rain, looking for the sun..................\"
And why oh why has our society seen to turn the other cheek on this sort of thing? If you say no, I beg to differ. Time and again, we see these people hide behind their 1st amendment rights, we cannot do anything against them. Their hands are slapped, they settle out of court and continue on as if nothing has happened. Jail time, if any is slight. They prey on our children, promise them the world, just to get close. We hear more and more stories of just what they have done!! This IS not acceptable behavior, nor should it EVER be.
Erin, I have to say I disagree with you and probably some other people on the boards. Public legal knowledge is just that, public and legal to mention in public forums.
These are such serious crimes that are often repeated. As for rehabilitation, sexual offenders often admit that they cannot control themselves, that they will commit again when out of incarceration. Violating a child is not something that I personally could forgive.
It is perfectly fair, in a forum such as this that these people, if they are in close contact with children on the circuit, be mentioned.
Whom are we protecting if we don't? Certainly not the children.
Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. - Gandhi
One of those city that are big towns, real big!,San Antonio TX
Its only been a day that this message has been up and wow Im impresed on the voice and power of some of the posts. Many good points have been made. Fisher your opinion is so true. It is power that is at the bottom of the issue here. with out power and controll how would these people survive? In the past month and a half we have hit on the topics of: unfare judgeing, anorexia, Alchol and drug abuse, and sexual misconduct. Parents say they like the fact that there childern are in this sport to get away from these things but it seams to be as prominent if not more prominent than we think. For all of these things we can not blame just one area. As I saw with the weight issue people were saying its more of the H/J/eq world that this happens in but is it that we see it more than other sports because it is so hiden? My sister was asistent manager of the San Antonio Rose for a fue years and she said that she would sell more beer and alcholic beveraged to the rodeo events than any of the other sports they had. But My sister said she would see more (too close for comfort) trainers too touchy with there students at the H/J shows. Because of what my sister saw she would warn me of trainers she preferd i not hang around. Her reasons were valid. Why are our trainers too close to our childern? We can sit and say well my daughter has a safe trainer but are they really safe. How can any parent be for sure that that person has not had a past incodent weather or not it has been recorded.
OSmeone had mentioned that the AHSA prefers not to get into this because of legalaties. but they are our governing bodies and it is there job to keep us safe. If we have no safty then why do we feel like we are safe. The AHSA can band a rider for abuse to a horse but not a rider for sexual abuse? And even if they do they half to be first tiped that it has hapend. But how many people have actualy been convicted? See the problem we have is that no one speaks up because they fear their saftey and life. I have seen some valid cases in my time and the main reason that thy are not charged is because there is no actual proof. Its one word against another. There have been saomany cry wolfs out there that the police don't know if it is real or not. I have been whitness to one of these faulse statements. My ex friend felt she was raped but how can she be raped if she was on top, if she did it mor than once. I talked to the investagator of this case and told him what I felt i also had a very long conversation on why these people get all the attention but the people who have been actualy asulted get little consideration. His reply was this. Many people who are infact raped don't come out untill the time after is too long. By then there is no proof. Its one word against another and with out hard evidence and other witnesses it hard to convict thats why if it is not an isolated situation it is best to find other victams With more victams even if it is one person ther is a better chance. I also asked him why some states release early when they know that they are guilty and could strike again. He said that its prioraty and even though he does not agree with this there are more killers than anything and they put emphasis on the murders and the drug dealers. Its the publisaty. he feels that sexual asult is as just important as the others and that they are more likly to repeat. Untill leguslation changes there views these people will be turned back into societywhere they do not belong. But what makes it hard to convict and prosacute is the people who feel they were asulted when they infact had not.
So the bottom line is that whats makeing it hard is all the people who make fals statements. Thats why it is extreamly important when you are actualy asulted to document it, go to the hospital (yes the police will get involved but the sooner maters are started the sooner it is over). Without a actual piece of hard evidence it is hard to point the finger that is why that sample pf the seamen is so important. its the only thing that can be physicly traced back to the perpatrator.
Erin I hate to say it but in maters like this since a conviction has been made and there is hard fact police evidence theat the names on this list should be alowed. If it is a fact that these people are on a such list then ther is no liabliaty cause it is hard and factual. now if the judgement is not in and they are only asumed to be then there is where names nead to remain silent. I have seen some of the names on this list and feel that they nead to be viewed by the public.
people like this curupt our hard and worked for industry. people who ware honest and clean are looked down upon because of these people.
Now its time for us to take action and do something about all of these isues. If our industrys governing bodies are not willing to do something its our job to develope a organization to deal with these hard topics. The people who are willing to take action such as me and weatherford can not do it alone. Her and I have spent countless hours talking about these things and the conclusion we come to is that we nead to step our foot in. I see many more sleepless nights ahead as i make my journie back east this june. I made a move by writing my story and its only a start but I took the time to write and let my side be heard. If it is published grate if not I try again. The more articles writen and submited to the various magazines the more these topics will come to be and the more power w will have to do something. As I said before if you want to help please do but be sure you are willing to stick with it. Me laura and weatherford have devoted countless hours to writeing, talking and thinking. If you feel you can make a diffrence please help us we can't do all of this alone.
\"I\'m going to go see a horse about a man\" - Unknown
In our current letigious society everyone is afraid of being the recipient of a law suit. What does that do to our civil rights? Why are the rights of the culprits more important than the rights of honest and hard working public?
I find a growing concern that in our efforts as honorable people we have been deprived of the very rights and privileges granted to those who violate the law. The culprit suffers a few days penance but the victim suffers from a loss of self esteem forever!
I commend the poster who disclosed the business practices of Andrew Philbrick for their courage. Who is here willing to risk a law suit by posting the "public record" of the offenders that we should watch out for?
[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 05-17-2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner: Erin, I have to say I disagree with you and probably some other people on the boards. Public legal knowledge is just that, public and legal to mention in public forums.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it's public knowledge, and I'm not going to delete it if someone posts it. I just think people should know all of the details before broadcasting information like that to thousands of people, and be sure that what they're doing is necessary.
I'm one of those people who really hates it when local news stations play up those "could there be a sexual offender in YOUR neighborhood?" stories. They cause a lot of panic that may not be necessary. I think parents should be informed of these people, definitely. But not the whole world. The information is out there for other people to find if they want it.
Publicly broadcasting the fact that someone has been convicted of a sexual offense is going to cause a lot more repercussions for that person that saying they'd been convicted of income tax fraud or something like that. I agree that parents should know these things, which is why I suggested that information be exchanged between knowledgeable and concerned parties via email.
But I don't need to know.. it doesn't affect me, nor does it affect 95% of the people here. If you want my honest opinion, I think the desire to share names has a lot to do with the gossipy nature of the horse world, as seen by the somewhat perverted "You think you have problems" thread I closed yesterday.
If someone has publicly documented information they think is important to share, I won't stop them. But I hope they'll think long and hard about what they're doing before they post.
BTW, I should add that not everyone who has been convicted of a sexual offense is a serial child molester. There are registered "sexual predators" who are definitely nasty people. Sexual offenses cover a wide range of crimes, as Portia's story about her friend illustrates.
Just like the saying "Think globally, act locally" It's true that sexual abuse is not limited to the horse world, but this is where we have the power to fight it. The more people that get involved here, the more power we have as a group. I understand why the AHSA might hesitate to get involved, and why it might not be the best idea to post name here, but something has to be done. I wonder if there's a way to create sort of a PTA in the horse world, an organization of parents, trainers, and anyone else that wants to get involved to discuss and take action on these issues that might not fall under what the AHSA considers its jurisdiction. I dont know if thats possible, or if it would even do any good anyway - just popped into my head. (oh sorry - CTT I went back and reread your post and you mentioned something like this, maybe its something we should look into)
CTT, you make good points about the importance of acting quickly and reporting a sexual assault. I was raped over four years ago, and never reported it. Now there's no way for me to do anything about it. I was ashamed, scared, and it was just plain easier to push it out of my head and pretend it never happened. I didnt tell anyone at all until about six months ago, and now here I am doing all this. I totally understand the mentality to keep it quiet, but believe me, just because you dont tell anyone and try to ignore it, its impossible to push it out of your mind. Sexual abuse of any kind is a horrible, terrible crime, and it will come back to haunt you if you dont deal with it. For the sake of others that might become victims its important to report it. I'm sure that there are people who think Im hypocritical for saying that because I didnt report it when it happened to me, but so be it - Its important.
Other than trying to get our stories published, I'm not sure what action we can take to fight this. I dont know much about the legal side of it. CTT and Weatherford we may have to have a brainstorming session. The more people get involved, the more that can be done.
[This message has been edited by laura (edited 05-17-2000).]
I am on the board of a national organization involved with Equine sports. Recently at a meeting, it was brought to our attention that we had recieved an inquiry regarding a certain individual who may - or may not - had been involved with some form of (we don't know) sexual molestation. This individual has applied for membership in a chapter of our organization. The letter queried whether any of us had heard of this individual in our area, should we allow him membership, did we know anything about the charges. I was MORTIFIED. The person questioning had no proof, and even if he/she did, we cannot judge this person, or deny membership, based on something that is totally irrelevant (and it is irrelevant - just because a person wishes to join a sport, does not make him/her a sexual predator in search of easy prey). In fact, in Canada, putting this sort of allegation in writing, and forwarding it to a - very public - group, without proof - could be considered slander.
This is very dicey ground here, folks. Yes, the victims should be protected. But, please, please have your facts straight before you go destroying a person's good name. I agree that a convicted offender should be public knowledge. But only to those whom it would affect. It's a fine line between "public knowledge and right to know" and a witch hunt.
Today, more than ever, our sports players and organizations have an enormous capacity to influence the minds and behaviors of Americans, both young and old. The reason is simple. For many Americans, professional, college and olympic athletes are today's heroes. We must utilize this outlet to send a positive message to all Americans about preventing domestic violence and sexual assault. Following are a number of ways communities can work with the local sports industry to help stop the violence.
Bring Sports Leagues Together in a Common Cause. Encourage local sports teams to come together in a joint effort to combat violence against women through joint awareness campaigns and public appearances.
Create Strict Disciplinary Policies. Encourage the creation of disciplinary policies for players on domestic violence and violence against women similar to drug policies. These policies should include stiff sanctions and penalties for committing domestic violence and sexual assault.
Push for PSAs During Broadcast of Sporting Events. Write or call sports leagues in support PSAs about violence against women during the broadcast of major sporting events, including NCAA games.
Promote the Distribution of Educational Materials. Promote the distribution of educational materials from local shelters and programs to players by offering the materials to the teams.
Involve Local Sports Heroes in Community Activities. Involve local sports heroes in rallies and events which bring attention to the problem of violence against women.
Reach Out to Potential Sponsors. If there are businesses in the area that are known for making or selling sporting equipment or clothing, approach them for sponsorship of community awareness activities.
We have one of the best justice systems in the world, but it is NOT infallible. There have been too many cases where a person has been unfairly convicted of many different types of crimes, to place your faith 100% in the reasoning that if a person is convicted, there are no extenuating circumstances involved. The fact that there has been a conviction is often a good place to start, but IMO you should make sure that you, personally, know ALL the facts before you broadcast this type of information.
We need to weed out those people who would harm our children, and Laura, I think that the idea of a PTA type organization has great merit. But, we need, also, to be careful that we do not start a witch hunt.
Having said that, I want to reiterate that I think that it is important that parents be as well informed as possible. I stated this in the top of this thread, but, as many people do not start at the top of a topic each time, I want to restate that I have the address for a site that will guide you to whatever sexual predator sites each state has made available. I will not print it here, simply because I'm not sure that the kids need to see it (probably overprotective, but thats the way I feel), but, if you will e-mail me, I will be glad to give it to you.
Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past - let us accept our own responsibility for the future.
I am totally supportive of prosecuting anyone guilty of committing any kind of sexual crime against anyone, man, woman or child. However, I feel like I need to make a few points:
A parent of a child needs to be aware of any time their child spends alone with an adult. I know girls love to hang out at the barn, but parents should make sure that there are several people in attendance.
Girls DEVELOP CRUSHES VERY EASILY, especially on men who are in a mentor type situation that they look up to. I would bet any amount of money that most male trainers (married or single) who are even slightly attractive have students that have crushes on them. I am just stating a fact, not absolving the trainer of any blame.
Even if someone has been found guilty of something, you can still be liable for damages if you broadcast these facts extensively and ruin the person's business (Portia?).