[Goldilox]

When I first started cantering my mare (around age 3) she would buck ALOT- I just chalked it up to her being young. It slowly got better and went away entirely after I started cantering her on the side of a very slight hill. After a month or two she'd stopped. She's twelve now and hasn't bucked since

[alto]

I have a three year old filly that wants to buck whenever she is asked to canter. And she keeps swishing her tail while cantering.

She is telling you (& the trainer) in every way she can that something is NOT right. My guess is pain in some form, whether saddle fit or muscle or balance or something ... she's only 3, why not toss her back out for a few months (so she can run & play & develop).

Doesn't matter which saddle is used.

Are you positive any of them truly fit? if there are no saddle fitters in your area, you might try the Port Lewis Impression pad to analyse fit.
What does she do on the lunge when asked to canter? how balanced is she when cantering?

Trainer says she is a bitch.

You answered this yourself:
I started her and have never thought she was a bitch before. she is very smart and quick to learn...so I was wondering if somehow, something is bothering her.

Not every trainer is right for every horse no matter how experienced a trainer may be - a truly experienced trainer recognises this & moves the horse onto a better fit.

Either find someone else to work this horse or finish on a good note (soon) & restart her in 6 months ... not every 3 yr old is physically or mentally ready to perform under saddle.

[Claudius]

I too thought she was just bucking. so , while riding her, when she began the bucking I clicked to her to send her foward and then she dug in and BUCKED. That is why I sent her to a professional, much younger than I, to work this out. When I started her and rode her for a couple of months last year she bucked when cantering. That time I decided just to trot and did almost no cantering, thinking that she was high behind and that it might be uncomfortable for her to canter. this year she as evened out and I hoped for better!!

[Neely]

Krys and Guin are right. The proper thing to do is check her out for back pain, saddle fit and teeth or other sources of discomfort. You may be asking her to do more than she is ready for, she is just a youngster. Find a more understanding trainer and believe that horses do not lie. Something is not right for her, just find out what she is trying to say... and take more time.

Yes.

[alto]

I too thought she was just bucking. so , while riding her, when she began the bucking I clicked to her to send her foward and then she dug in and BUCKED. That is why I sent her to a professional, much younger than I, to work this out.

Was she vet checked for possible physical issues?

Does she canter/play much at liberty? (I think you mentioned you have other young horses)

[Guin]

When I started her and rode her for a couple of months last year she bucked when cantering.

If she's just three now, you were trying to canter her under saddle when she was two? I really think you are doing WAY too much, too soon.

[Perfect Pony]

She is telling you (& the trainer) in every way she can that something is NOT right. My guess is pain in some form, whether saddle fit or muscle or balance or something ... she's only 3, why not toss her back out for a few months (so she can run & play & develop).


Are you positive any of them truly fit? if there are no saddle fitters in your area, you might try the Port Lewis Impression pad to analyse fit.
What does she do on the lunge when asked to canter? how balanced is she when cantering?

The pony I started as a 3 year old was bucking into the canter when I fist started doing canter work. The saddle seemed to fit fine and she did not have a sore back, so I figured she would get over it. Unfortunately for me a couple months in I was bucked off in a bronc fit. I discovered that she had very particular saddle fit requirements, and that most saddles really bothered her at the canter. I had to go through hell to figure out what fit her, and even rode her bareback for 2 months. It was really eye opening.

[FineAlready]

I too thought she was just bucking. so , while riding her, when she began the bucking I clicked to her to send her foward and then she dug in and BUCKED. That is why I sent her to a professional, much younger than I, to work this out. When I started her and rode her for a couple of months last year she bucked when cantering. That time I decided just to trot and did almost no cantering, thinking that she was high behind and that it might be uncomfortable for her to canter. this year she as evened out and I hoped for better!!

Oh, well in this case, it DOES sound like you have more than a "baby" problem. Does she buck or resist cantering on a lungeline? I agree with others that if she is pitching a real bucking fit, she probably has a physical problem. The physical causes of bucking can be quite varied (mine bucks - i.e., rodeo broncs, when he needs his hocks injected).

[re-runs]

Some young horses are somewhat unbalanced yet and find it difficult to hold the canter for long, especially on a circle.

Many times the rider is apprehensive about cantering because many young horses canter fast trying to maintain their balance. Their anxiety transfers to the horse and makes things tense and it becomes a vicious circle ending in the horse bucking. One has to have a secure enough seat to "let them go" and ride as fast as the horse needs to. A person has to ask themselves if they are of that mindset and courage and talent to allow the horse that, if not, maybe it is time to let someone else re-start the horse. There is no shame in doing this. Some people are just better colt starters than others and it takes a certain kind of person to really be good at it. After the colt starter gives the horse the basics and a good foundation, the owner can then get the horse back and enjoy and trust the horse and go from there.

Tom Dorrance to Ray Hunt when Ray brought the problem of a bucking horse to Tom for help......"That is the last thing that horse wants to do." (meaning; buck)

[cosmos mom]

I have a coming two year old filly that will be started next year. I would have one wored for a trainer that claimed she was "just being a bitch": Fired.

[Claudius]

Guin....having made my living in the horse business for 30 years, I "broke" as they say about 20 babies a year destined to be race horses. We galloped them in the late fall of their yearling year. this filly is 3/4 tb and I watch her play with other young horses in the field and she is normal in every way.

She was girthy to start with the surcingle, we went slowly. She line drove like an old horse. She bucked with the saddle and was always free lunged in the round pen before we rode. She would only hump along twice or three times and then would be fine. I taught her to let me mount from a mounting block. She stood quietly to be mounted and rode off through the alley way to our 3 acre field in which we ride the young horses. She has hacked around the grass track surrounding our 10 acre infield. She has done cavaletti willingly. she trots nicely. When I asked for the canter she always resisted a little and then went on and was just "humpy" for several strides and when ever steering had to be reinforced. We never cantered a lot. We did a lot of walking before and after our work. She was never worked more than half an hour.

I had my vet check her this spring to see if her ovaries were tender. They were not. Her excellently conformed back is solid as a rock and not sore to groom, or press on. She has no skin disease. She is a happy camper in the stall. She is a beautifully conformed tank with a powerful hind end, a great slopeing shoulder, great bone, low set hocks...a great looking girl!!
I have enjoyed reading others' EXPERIENCES with THEIR buckers, but I assure you, I do not need a tutorial about starting young horses.

[FineAlready]

Guin....having made my living in the horse business for 30 years, I "broke" as they say about 20 babies a year destined to be race horses. We galloped them in the late fall of their yearling year. this filly is 3/4 tb and I watch her play with other young horses in the field and she is normal in every way.

She was girthy to start with the surcingle, we went slowly. She line drove like an old horse. She bucked with the saddle and was always free lunged in the round pen before we rode. She would only hump along twice or three times and then would be fine. I taught her to let me mount from a mounting block. She stood quietly to be mounted and rode off through the alley way to our 3 acre field in which we ride the young horses. She has hacked around the grass track surrounding our 10 acre infield. She has done cavaletti willingly. she trots nicely. When I asked for the canter she always resisted a little and then went on and was just "humpy" for several strides and when ever steering had to be reinforced. We never cantered a lot. We did a lot of walking before and after our work. She was never worked more than half an hour.

I had my vet check her this spring to see if her ovaries were tender. They were not. Her excellently conformed back is solid as a rock and not sore to groom, or press on. She has no skin disease. She is a happy camper in the stall. She is a beautifully conformed tank with a powerful hind end, a great slopeing shoulder, great bone, low set hocks...a great looking girl!!
I have enjoyed reading others' EXPERIENCES with THEIR buckers, but I assure you, I do not need a tutorial about starting young horses.

I wonder if the saddle is pinching her behind the point of her shoulders when she canters. A lot of horses will be comfortable enough walking and trotting in a saddle that pinches a bit behind the shoulders, but the canter really bothers/hurts them in that same saddle.

I realize there would be a lot of reasons you wouldn't want to try this (i.e., personal safety!), but one way to figure out if the saddle is what is causing the problem in the canter is to try cantering bareback. I did figure out a saddle pinching problem with my horse this way once. Asking for the canter that first time bareback while trying to test the theory is, um, filled with suspense, lol. A less "exciting" way to test this out might be to have her canter "naked" (no saddle, no surcingle) on a lungeline and see how she does.

[Claudius]

cosmos.....as an experienced horse owner I prefer someone who calls it as they see it. I am not offended or defensive. I don't need someone to mince words. I prefer to hear it and learn from it and work on it, as does this trainer.

We have tried several saddles, including a treeless saddle, kind of a bareback saddle. Her behavior is no different in any of the saddles...the trainer is sure she will solve this issue .....I just thought I would see if the EXPERIENCED horsemen on this board might have had similar experiences with positive outcomes.

[FineAlready]

cosmos.....as an experienced horse owner I prefer someone who calls it as they see it. I am not offended or defensive. I don't need someone to mince words. I prefer to hear it and learn from it and work on it, as does this trainer.

We have tried several saddles, including a treeless saddle, kind of a bareback saddle. Her behavior is no different in any of the saddles...the trainer is sure she will solve this issue .....I just thought I would see if the EXPERIENCED horsemen on this board might have had similar experiences with positive outcomes.

Okay, well, I'm not sure if you are getting angry with me here or not, but I WAS just sharing a similar experience with a positve outcome (removed the pinching saddle...). Also, hocks, as I mentioned before. Could she have hock pain? Mine was not lame from the hock pain, just a rodeo bronc.

[Claudius]

No, never angry with experienced input. I have not had her hocks looked at....and it may be worth doing the next time she has a vet coming to her barn. With as little as this filly has done, I did not consider this imminent. But it is worth considering...thanks.

[PoohLP]

Don't be discouraged. I went through this with my horse when he was coming 4 at the end of last year/beginning of this year. He'd been fine when cantering so long as I allowed him to canter long and low, but as he came into his 4th year and got more balanced and able to canter straighter, I started to ask for him to be more up and work off his back end more and that is when the bucks reared their ugly head. And we aren't talking a hop - I'm talking HUGE fliers - one of which took out the top board of the jump 4-5ft fence around the jump ring. I never came off but there was some serious whiplash going on!

Part of it was him being an SOB - what I was asking for was harder, he didn't want to do it and he knew that if he could throw me off balance even for just a sec, he'd be able to stretch back down and out again for a few strides. And he is so athletic, that it was easier for him to throw these bronco bucks, than to just do what I asked.

After making sure his saddle fit, his teeth were ok and getting him a chiro visit to make sure he didn't have any back issues, I talked with my trainer/instructor, and we decided to work on building up his muscles more so he'd have more ability to carry himself. I did this by lunging him at the trot in side reins (very, very loose at first to get him used to the concept and then over several weeks shortening them until they had him in training level frame) for about 10 minutes (5 each direction) every day before my ride. This helped build up his top line a little more so I knew the problem wasn't a strength issue.

The second thing I did was really, really concentrate not giving him an inch when he'd throw a buck so that as soon as all four feet were on the ground he was being pushed forward again.

He is a clever SOB! When bucking by itself didn't get him what he wanted, he started bucking as a means of throwing a flying change bc he figured out I'd then trot him to pick up the correct lead. When I realized that was happening, I took that reward away by having him hold the counter canter for at least half a circle before asking for the change. (On the bright side, we're ahead of the game for dressage!)

He really did have to learn that the more he fought, the longer and harder he worked. He had one spot he threw the buck in every time, so we worked until he went through that part of the circle quietly two or three times and then I'd stop. If we came out and he did it right away, we were done after 3 circles. If he fought, we might have done a lot more. Eventually he learned.

The final piece to the puzzle came when my trainer and I decided to try asking him to move out immediately upon cantering so he wouldn't have a chance to think about throwing the buck. We quickly found that if immediately after cueing for a canter I pushed him into a medium canter and after a big loop around the ring then collected him in for more intense work, it seemed to help him find his canter balance/rhythm.

It took a few months and a couple nights where I was worried that I had done something to "ruin" my previously happy, talented horse. Then one day, it clicked! The first time I took him out for a ride and he was suddenly the soft, compliant happy horse he had been 6 month earlier, I wanted to cry I was so happy.

By and large he isn't throwing the bucks anymore and his canter is much more balanced and smooth. I really think it was a mix of him trying to figure out how to use his rear end and, while he was figuring it out, fighting tooth and nail to not have to do so. He simply didn't see the point in doing it the way I was asking. Once he realized he had absolutely no other choice, he started fighting less and thinking more and that is when the progress actually started.

[alto]

Have you scoped or treated for ulcers?
- as an experienced TB owner you obviously know the statistics for uclers in TB's (even those out on pasture) - if anything had an incident rate of greater than 50% in my breed of interest, I'd certainly rule that out the first time she was girthy (obviously you desensitized her before coming to this conclusion!) & especially if she disliked cantering with a rider.

If she is sensitive to pressure on her spine & she has a typical TB back, treeless & bareback will rule out nothing with respect to saddle fit.

If she has a broken wither (which can occur in pasture play) or "kissing spine" (which can occurr at any age), the symptoms she exhibits are not uncommon.

What does she do on the lunge?
1) with a surcingle
2) with a saddle
3) with a rider
OR have neither you nor your trainer done any lunge work to develop those back muscles that are so important for a young horse to carry a rider?
& there is no point in saying that every other young horse you've started has been just fine in your program - this horse obviously IS NOT.

You seem to be wanting this to be behavioral though so .....

[Guin]

Beg pardon. I am not sure how I would have known you start racehorses until you just now pointed it out. Apparently my ESP is not working.

[meupatdoes]

There are horses that buck as part of the learning process.

I have found with these guys that just carrying on with a positive attitude and not getting in a fight over it eventually eliminates the behavior.

My philosophy with these guys is, "So what if you're bucking, let's still keep cantering!" If you ask them to GO and then immediately pull up for bucking it is a conflicting message.

So I just GO and let the kinks iron themselves out with mileage.

[Perfect Pony]

I would also take some films of hocks and stifles, just so you KNOW you aren't dealing with a chip or bone spur that is causing her some discomfort. She is young enough that her joints could look clean but there could be something going on there.

I had issues with my Hanoverian mare. I always suspected something in her stifle but (long story) it was dismissed for YEARS. I finally insisted on stifle xrays and she had an OCD lesion that was bothering her. Now she also had neuro issues which complicated things and "hid" the stifle to an extent, but her bucking and unwillingness at the canter was a result of the lesion.

I really do think horses are trying to tell us something when they are well raised, sweet horses that are acting up under saddle. Even when the vets told me there was nothing wrong with my mare I knew better, she would have walked through fire for me so her behavior under saddle simply did not make sense.