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  1. #121
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    This topic came up at the USHJA convention. Doubt Ace would ever be legal to show on outside of the time frame already established.

    The reason given at the convention was that ace is a known tranquilizer. Can you imagine the legal ramifications of an organization "legalizing" any amount of tranquilizer for a horse to be shown over fences. What happens when that horse trips, rider is hurt. Lawsuit by insurance company against everyone, including USEF for "allowing" a horse to be shown with a tranquilizer.

    It is was also pointed out many times with different drugs, that it is VERY difficult to determine what is OK with one horse just by it's weight. So many of the drugs we use can have a different affect from day to day even in the same horse with the same amount.

    Also, they did say that a test for magnesium is in the works. And I recall something regarding the compounding companies working this them.


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  2. #122
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    I wonder whether any such test would be able to differentiate between the liquid (injectable) and powder (oral) forms of magnesium?

    Haven't read the whole thread, at least not since first posted, but if no one has pointed this out, there are legitimate therapeutic *and* diagnostic uses for the oral form. Orally administered magnesium helps with insulin resistance in horses (source: http://www.balancedequinenutrition.com/IRArticle.html) as well as being a great quick, cheap, down & dirty way to find out whether your horse has ulcers or not, if you can't afford a scope: give horsie 15 Tums twice a day for a week and if his symptoms clear up you know you need to break out the pop rocks. I would hate to LOSE both of these options b/c a bunch of so-called "trainers" have a needle fixation. I'll accept it if need be however.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    I wonder whether any such test would be able to differentiate between the liquid (injectable) and powder (oral) forms of magnesium?

    Haven't read the whole thread, at least not since first posted, but if no one has pointed this out, there are legitimate therapeutic *and* diagnostic uses for the oral form. Orally administered magnesium helps with insulin resistance in horses (source: http://www.balancedequinenutrition.com/IRArticle.html) as well as being a great quick, cheap, down & dirty way to find out whether your horse has ulcers or not, if you can't afford a scope: give horsie 15 Tums twice a day for a week and if his symptoms clear up you know you need to break out the pop rocks. I would hate to LOSE both of these options b/c a bunch of so-called "trainers" have a needle fixation. I'll accept it if need be however.
    Not a vet and do not claim to have done the research but was told by a vet that oral magnesium can only be absorbed to the extent the body is deficit - the rest is excreted by the system naturally which is not the case with injected magnesium.



  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    I wonder whether any such test would be able to differentiate between the liquid (injectable) and powder (oral) forms of magnesium?

    Haven't read the whole thread, at least not since first posted, but if no one has pointed this out, there are legitimate therapeutic *and* diagnostic uses for the oral form. Orally administered magnesium helps with insulin resistance in horses (source: http://www.balancedequinenutrition.com/IRArticle.html) as well as being a great quick, cheap, down & dirty way to find out whether your horse has ulcers or not, if you can't afford a scope: give horsie 15 Tums twice a day for a week and if his symptoms clear up you know you need to break out the pop rocks. I would hate to LOSE both of these options b/c a bunch of so-called "trainers" have a needle fixation. I'll accept it if need be however.
    Not a vet and do not claim to have done the research but was told by a vet that oral magnesium can only be absorbed to the extent the body is deficit - the rest is excreted by the system naturally which is not the case with injected magnesium.



  5. #125
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    The same thing regarding oral vs. injectable was stated by the vet at the forum. You can give all the oral you want; it does no harm to the horse, only your wallet, as they expel what is not needed.



  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dags View Post
    Back to tiered C > B > A > AA showing instead of slicing our traditional divisions 6 ways so everyone gets a ribbon. Everyone got ribbons back when B horses showed at B shows.

    Assistant trainers getting their feet wet by managing riders and riding young horses on their own at the C & B shows, not by helping an already overpressured & overworked pro get 25 stalled horses through the hunter ring by 9am.
    These are two great, practical ideas that would benefit everyone, including the riders and horses. Riders could really learn in an appropriate setting (while not totally breaking the bank) and move up at a responsible pace. Likely less medicating to get the over-mounted, over-faced client around the ring at the big shows.

    However, neither of these ideas feed the egos of most of today's clients. Show with an assistant?!? At a B rated show?!? There's no social glory in that at all!


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  7. #127
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    No horse should be competing with any amount of tranquilizer in its system.

    There are WAY too many factors in play in determining how any given horse will respond to a particular dose of medication on a particular day to ever make it a safe practice.

    Why not learn to ride, or else buy a horse that is suitable for you ...

    I know that I don't ride perfectly, and that is all the more reason I want my horse's wits about him so he can bail me out of a rough spot if need be!


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  8. #128
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    Personally I am disgusted by anyone that CHEATS, especially cheating by injecting their horse with a substance.

    no horsemanship
    no sportsmanship
    no morals

    all greed and ego

    So glad I am not part of the show scene any more. Seems like every discipline has now gone to the extreme at the cost of the horse.

    Its sickening.



  9. #129
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    So it seems most ride to show these days. Reasons for doing this is social atmosphere and the glory of winning? for the owner - rider. Trainers reasons are to make a living.
    I find it interesting that with all the warmbloods around these day that there is still the wide spread use of tranquilzers or shall I say drugs or substances with tranquilizing effects. I remember a time when people said that warmbloods were better to own because unlike those crazy hot TB most people can ride them.
    The plain fact is horses are horses and it takes learned skill to ride well but as it has been pointed out people just don't have the time or don't want to take the time to to do so.
    Where is the answer? I am not sure - could just ban the hunter divisions OK don't shoot!
    I do wonder why more adults just don't pay the pros to show and go to the shows for the social aspect. If I don't have the time to put in the riding why not enjoy riding when you can at home and show up at the show to recieve your horses ribbon? Most pay for the horse to be shown by the pro anyway (I know not all) Just a thought.
    Hmmm the kids? I feel bad for most that they don't have the freedom to just go ride and have fun - tack up or bareback out in the fields and trails just to play and learn. For many reasons this is not possible anymore, loss of land and liability issues. I guess our horses are paying the price.
    Somethings are so much better now and some where better then but then some things will never change.
    Regarding Ace it has its uses. I would like to think not in the show ring.
    M
    Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction


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  10. #130
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    I personally don't like riding a horse that has been aced... and also if you have a horse that gets set off they snap right out of sedation and IMHO can be dangerous. But this also depends on the horse.

    If you were to legalize anything, maybe a form would be required to submit, then it goes to the judges box so then you could be judged accordingly. If horse X goes around beautifully and has NO meds on board they get a higher score than horse Z that had ace.... Just a crazy idea for those who would be interested in ace use.

    I understand both sides to the story and interestingly don't really have much of a one way or the other thought on it other than I know what I feel comfortable with.
    Train like you have never won and show like you have never lost!!!



  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Oh jeez just test every single horse at a show, close the lunging areas and open a gallop track. Problem solved.
    And this will help with the non-testable drugs how? In reality, it will drive those who are willing to experiment (and there are plenty) right to the plethora of non-testable drugs readily available. Real solutions must be based in reality. "Find a new horse", and "learn how to ride" are not solutions to the problem and will not help the horses currently being abused. I agree with earlier poster- change the incentives of the hunter ring (judging and especially courses!!) and you start to look at a realistic solution.

    A small amount of regulated Ace *would* reduce lunging, reduce unregulated, rampant, and ignorant experimenting with the latest quieting drugs, and reduce wear and tear on horses legs. This is hard to dispute.

    Sadly, none of the options seem at all appealing.



  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIIBarsV View Post
    You know, in my world, which seems to have considerably more available common sense in it, horses are trained without lunging. Without drugs. They are expected to behave themselves as soon as a halter touches their head until the moment the halter comes off (and even then... they're expected to behave.)


    I think you guys are seriously underestimating the suitability of AQHA/APHA hunt seat-bred horses. I just felt like providing additional information that YES, there ARE better ways to accomplish the same goal without making yourself look like an unclassy lowlife!
    Buah-ha-ha-ha-ha. AQHA HUS horses aren't lunged/prepped. No, nothing bad ever happens to them such as being drugged, tied up, not fed/watered, drugged, lunged, or drugged. Oh yes, they are all perfectly-suitable for their careers right out of the womb.

    Thanks for the laugh. I'll be giggling all day now.
    "And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."


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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely View Post

    However, neither of these ideas feed the egos of most of today's clients. Show with an assistant?!? At a B rated show?!? There's no social glory in that at all!
    The idea that someone would take pride in winning a ribbon on a drugged animal would be laughable if it weren't so goddamn pathetic.
    What kind of BS peptalk do you give yourself in the mirror to not be ashamed of that behavior?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffie View Post
    Buah-ha-ha-ha-ha. AQHA HUS horses aren't lunged/prepped. No, nothing bad ever happens to them such as being drugged, tied up, not fed/watered, drugged, lunged, or drugged. Oh yes, they are all perfectly-suitable for their careers right out of the womb.

    Thanks for the laugh. I'll be giggling all day now.
    Hey, you forgot bleeding them, hanging them from the rafters of the stall so their neck is too sore to lift or filing the hoof to the quick so they are too sore to go out of a stumble but don;t limp since all the feet hurt. IIRC the AQHA promised to crack down on that and improve the judging to allow the horse to look like it was alive around 1980 or so. They are about as effective as USEF in enforcement for the same reasons, no legal authority.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffie View Post
    Buah-ha-ha-ha-ha. AQHA HUS horses aren't lunged/prepped. No, nothing bad ever happens to them such as being drugged, tied up, not fed/watered, drugged, lunged, or drugged. Oh yes, they are all perfectly-suitable for their careers right out of the womb.

    Thanks for the laugh. I'll be giggling all day now.
    OMG...I missed that part of her post. Really? What AQHA shows are you going to, 3Bars?
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.



  16. #136
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    I can't imagine the insurance industry being willing to insure a show where it is legal to jump horses that have been tranquilized.

    I can't imagine knowingly getting on a horse and jumping it after it's been tranquilized. Horses trip, stumble, hit jumps, and have to compensate for rider errors - they need their wits and coordination to remain upright at times.



  17. #137
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    Unless the owners file a mortality claim the insurance company does not care and has no right to order a necropsy and be privy to the results even if they did care. No claim-no $$ pay out-no investigation from that end.

    Hey remember the Law and Order episode with poor Mr Wickets about 8 or 9 years ago (still with Jerry Orbach and Chris Noth)? Ought to get that from Netfix or something...partially based on the horse killings and disappearance of Helen Brach.

    And read Hot Blood while you are at it. Amazon should still have it far as I know. Time to remind newer folk what actually went on...and probably still does.

    Maybe it's time for the PV thread to make it's annual appearance if somebody wants to dig and bump it.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  18. #138
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    Hard to believe most of the incredible ignorance. Let's return to the glory days of Ace?!
    Here is a quote from Denny Emerson:
    So getting back to the little pony that died from drug overdose, we can see that drugs take the place of education. If trainers and riders learn to train quietly and without loss of temper, adhering to the training scale, then the horses, many of them, at least, won`t "need" drugs to keep them quiet, because they won`t be tense in the first place.
    Our whole USA "system" is MILES away from an understanding of these classical concepts, however. MILES AWAY."

    I am a farrier and a horse trainer. I won't get under a horse on ace, or on top, or any other drug for that matter. It is called horse training. Learn to do it!


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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Hey remember the Law and Order episode with poor Mr Wickets about 8 or 9 years ago (still with Jerry Orbach and Chris Noth)? Ought to get that from Netfix or something...partially based on the horse killings and disappearance of Helen Brach.
    Wow, I didn't know about this. If anyone can find it on Netflix, a link would be great!

    ETA: Never mind, found it, it's Season 6, Episode 11, Corpus Delicti.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Wow, I didn't know about this. If anyone can find it on Netflix, a link would be great!
    You should, it's only marginally silly. Mr Wickets is a Junior Hunter or Medal horse and is a little palomino who gets a vist from The Sandman when he drops too many rails... owner declines to file a claim so no necropsy. Not so loosely based on the Chicago Horse Mafia.

    Found it in only about 10 minutes. Little older then I thought. "Corpus Delecti". Episode 122 aired 1/17/1996. Looks like it's available free online, Google Law and Order for sites and options. Netflix has the complete series too. All 20 years of it.
    Last edited by findeight; Dec. 30, 2012 at 06:45 PM.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



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