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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    Several solutions have been offered: turnout facilities at shows, a more relaxed attitude in judges towards friskiness, and a change of mentality in horse owners towards the real needs of an animal the does best with lots of space and movement every day.
    Yes - but all of these things take time. And what about facilities that can't put in turnout facilities? How do we define "real needs" in a one size fits all - at what point do you say the horse is a more advanced ride versus being unsuitable for the job?
    So they take time and facilities need to accommodate. Shrug. It's better than just "oh well can't be bothered - drug the horses" IMO.

    As far as "can x horse be trained and managed to suit y rider?" well that's up to the rider and trainer to determine. But at least give proper horsemanship a shot before you throw your hands in the air and drug the horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    Showing is not a right. If you can't afford to ride a horse enough to safely show it this year, stay home and learn how so you can show next year.
    Do you show? Where? On what level? The industry at large is made up of amateurs who want to learn to ride in order to show. Do you really think this will go over well?
    I'm an eventer at Training level hoping to go Prelim, not that it matters - unless you're saying that if I don't show hunters I can't comment on horse management? I reject that argument obviously.

    Do I think it will "go over well" that people will need to become more proficient riders and less reliant on drugs? I expect those who drug horses will be annoyed. And I don't...uh... care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    If you need multiple lessons per week to ride a horse safely, perhaps you're not ready to show.
    Even below you say (and I'll quote) that you need to be committed to riding a few times a week. When the majority of people ride once per week, you end up with riders who don't progress as fast but still want to go show. Your answer will be stay home - see above.
    As you quoted me I said people will need to ride a few times a week. That's different to taking multiple lessons a week. I stand by my argument: A proficient rider will learn how to ride a frisky horse with a few rides a week. A rider who needs a lot of help to get there should stay home until they are proficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    If the choice is drugging horses or losing people from the sport, then yes - let's lose those people who feel drugging is a better choice, vs managing their horse appropriately.
    In the long term, I agree. But what about now? What can we do NOW to stop it? It can't all come crashing down at once. That will fail.
    Do you mean that stopping people using drugs = the end of the horse show world, zombie apocalypse style? I doubt it! What'll really happen is people will get caught drugging, either take their toys home and leave the sandpit or wise up and set a better example. No drugs = thinking caps on: bingo! I'll ride the horse better and turn that sucker out for a few/dozen/23 hours a day. General uptick in quality of riding, etc etc.

    And this will happen not through pronouncements by the government on loudspeakers and death threats, but gradually, organically, by people talking and sharing opinions as we are today. Peer pressure to stop drugging will get results, as it does on the playground and the boardroom and all other aspects of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    You don't need to ride a horse every day to make is sane - you need to be committed to riding a few times a week and ensuring your horse has proper turnout and exercise the rest of the time, if you can't/won't keep it in pasture.
    Agreed.
    Phew!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    Could be people are quitting because of their disgust over the drugging and expense?
    I very, very much doubt that is the or even A reason 99% of people stop showing.
    I think it could very well be a reason - I wouldn't be involved in a sport where drugging was the norm, especially in my peer ground, and I'm not (eventer.)

    I am sure there are other reasons - being nickel and dimed to death over lunging and Ace shots comes to mind...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    I don't think the industry is going to die if we stop people drugging their horses, or tell them to woman up and learn to ride. Anyone who wants ribbons handed to them on a platter is just going to pay someone else to do the turnout/pasture/hacks for them, just as they currently pay someone to lunge and Ace their horses.
    Most already do pay their trainers to ride/turnout/warm up at shows?
    Those who drugged before might have to start using alternate means (hack, pasture) is what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    Look to the UK, New Zealand, Australia et al. Countries with a longer tradition of showing than the USA, with the popular working hunter divisions where horses gallop around an outside track. There is no "slow lope around a few smallish fences" class. How do these people avoid dying and suing each other? Not by drugging, and not by obeying the every word of their trainer or handing horses off to grooms. (What trainer? What grooms?) They have a completely different model of horse keeping: on pasture for much if not all of the time. They also have strong Pony Clubs and hunts that teach kids strong riding. So they can be ready to handle a horse.
    Good for them. That is NOT the US. You cannot say that what works for them will work for us. That would be like me providing an example comparing Saudi women to American women, although not quite as extreme. Different culture, different geography. Do you know how difficult it is to find affordable pasture board in Dallas? Or most urban areas?
    Not really that different - they're several English speaking countries with a similar showing class. Actually a more gallopy class than US hunters, a lot less horse drugging, and h'm, a whole load of pasture kept horses. Co-inky-dink?

    I have no idea how hard it is to find pasture board in Dallas - I wouldn't live there because (drumroll) there's no pasture board! Among other reasons But really - here in the SF bay area people kvetch about lack of pasture board too but I've had no problem finding it in the last dozen years. I've made sacrifices to ensure I get it - that's how important it is to me, and my horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria
    Why are we rewarding poor riding and encouraging the business model of helplessness that's sprung up?

    Since the A shows are all about $$$ just test every horse, do away with lunge areas, install a gallop track and watch as trainers jump to charge their clients for those services instead. Those who can't afford that level of trainer assistance will then find themselves on a more equal footing, as they can probably do that stuff themselves.


    A gallop track would be a disaster. Disaster.
    Why? Because people would have to learn to ride? Yowza!
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................


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  2. #82
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    I think that many forms of horse showing, including hunters, has nothing to do with the horses, horsemanship and riding skills.
    It's about ribbons and photos and socializing and trainers who bring horses ready-to-ride to the gate.
    Riders who ride only in lessons and only on a quiet horse can concentrate on the social life of the show.
    These riders couldn't tell if the horse was drugged to the eyeballs or head bobbing lame. (although I suppose the combination is unlikely)

    This has two big drawbacks.... the welfare of the horses, which many don't have a clue about...... AND....

    The riders who WANT to learn and ride well and deal with problems and turn an iffy ride into a great one. What about them? Bottom of the list because their horse was not drugged, LTD, ridden by the pro immediately before the class or..... heaven forbid.... pricked his ears at something interesting in the ring?
    This is about more than killing horses, it is also about killing the sport by driving away the people who actually enjoy the riding and learning.


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  3. #83
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    Xanthoria - I think your opinion is very much the view of most eventers when looking at the hunter world. I will say this though that you aren't speaking just of horse management but of riding styles and prepping of horses. The way an event horse is prepped for an event is much different than the way a hunter is prepared. And the venues most Hunter shows are held are different, do you stay at the same show venue for 12-20 weeks? Because at WEF ours do and even off of the show grounds at WEF turnout is limited. And if everyone is talking about Devon well, turnout is NOT an option it is in the middle of town! And what about year end finals, where should they add a galloping track at indoors?

    I know I'm not giving any answers but turnout is nice but not practical at every venue, and as for people learning to ride if I waited to show until I was perfect than I would never be in the show ring and I would become, as most adults would, afraid of it.



  4. #84
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    Xanthoria, please at least be informed on the logistics of the average U.S. showgrounds today. There are very few with the real estate to have large, accessible LONGEING areas, much less paddocks. The shows mentioned above, WEF, Devon, indoors, and many others, are multi-week shows. No paddocks. Saying venues should add them, without having the land available, is ridiculous, and not even a legit arguement. The few shows that do have a few paddocks available don't necessarily keep them in good repair (Culpeper) and the demand completely overwhelms the availability.

    So, take that arguement out of your arsenal because the shows today aren't the shows of 30+ years ago that took place on large farms/estates or public lands.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  5. #85
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    Lauriep and MMF, if there is demand for those facilities, it will be met. If the riders and trainers just drug instead, it won't happen.

    Eventing happens at many places across the country and demands a great deal more open space than hunter shows. Yet it happens.

    I don't think it's unreasonable at all. If the current situation is drugging horses because they're too frisky to ride, you can either start riding Qhs and draft horses or do something about getting the facilities up to scratch.

    Similarly a 12-20 week show schedule is very stressful for a horse. Again, the riders and trainers allow that to happen instead of demanding better schedules. Do remember that shows in the USA are out to make money and you are the customer.
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................


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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Lauriep and MMF, if there is demand for those facilities, it will be met. If the riders and trainers just drug instead, it won't happen.

    Eventing happens at many places across the country and demands a great deal more open space than hunter shows. Yet it happens.

    I don't think it's unreasonable at all. If the current situation is drugging horses because they're too frisky to ride, you can either start riding Qhs and draft horses or do something about getting the facilities up to scratch.

    Similarly a 12-20 week show schedule is very stressful for a horse. Again, the riders and trainers allow that to happen instead of demanding better schedules. Do remember that shows in the USA are out to make money and you are the customer.
    Oy. We are talking about established show facilities that have been there for years. There ISN'T MORE LAND AVAILABLE TO THEM. Or, if there is, it is ridiculously expensive.

    The events you mention have also been in their locations for a long time. If they lost that location and had to move, they would have a problem as well, because open space is just getting too limited.

    The trainers keep these schedules going because they make money on the road, not at home. It feeds the entire "can't ride" scenario. It isn't right, but it IS the way it is today. How are you going to force them to curtail the constant travel and stay home?

    With shows of 1000 animals and up, how many paddocks do you think would have to be built to accomodate the numbers?

    There is a very good reason these horses are called "show" hunters.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  7. #87
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    Xanthoria- Strict demand doesn't make it so! And just because horses are at shows during the winter doesn't mean they show week in and week out. My horse trail rides down the bridle paths on the canals a lot over the winter! And as you mentioned you live in California, does it snow there in the winter or get in the single digits most days during the winter? If I were a horse I would much rather live like my horse in the lap of luxury at WEF when it is freezing cold up north rather than shivering in an indoor, but then again you will probably give the eventing answer that our show hunters should be let down for months over the winter, and maybe I would if I couldn't afford Florida but I can and my horse loves it there!!!

    So to the OP should ace be legalized? I don't think so, but I don't see a problem with products like perfect prep and quiessence.



  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelico View Post
    4. No medications can be given on the grounds by anyone but a licensed veterinarian.
    All I could think on this one is...I can't wait to add that vet bill to my showing costs. Surely there are legitimate reasons for meds to be administered on show grounds that shouldn't require a vet's presence?

    As to the Ace itself - well, I've been known to take a xanax before showing - should we drug test the riders too? Wait, I shouldn't have said (typed) that - we probably should! (I'm kidding...)

    I think the whole thing boils down to ethics. Drugs, like everything else, can be used for good or for evil, so to speak. Can we have ethics without regulation? Good question. That certainly hasn't been the case in the legal profession...we are very tightly regulated, but still have people abusing the system.

    I think that, no matter what the rules, people will make it a game to try and get around them. Others will break rules without even intending to do anything wrong. Most systems are imperfect...so here's hoping to a more ethical horse world? That's my ideal.

    gardenie put up a good quote:
    "Whatever happened to people having partnerships with their horses, owning them for 15 years and progressing up the levels together, being a team."

    That's been my experience so far. My first horse was older, suited to my super beginner spastic self. Second horse is now younger, green, and I'm happy doing 2' jumps and moving up with her. Her temperment is also suited to my slightly less spastic current riding abilities. We're ready when we're ready...but then I am super lucky and have an awesome trainer that teaches foundation and you show when you're ready, and not before.

    Maybe we don't all keep our horses for 15 years, but we stay with them until either they retire or we outgrow their abilities and place them with another rider who is a good match. I also live in a rare horsey vortex with a no drama barn where we are all friends. Jealous?
    "Look, I'm trying not to test the durability of the arena with my face!" (Because only GM can do that.)


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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Eventing happens at many places across the country and demands a great deal more open space than hunter shows. Yet it happens.

    I don't think it's unreasonable at all. If the current situation is drugging horses because they're too frisky to ride, you can either start riding Qhs and draft horses or do something about getting the facilities up to scratch.
    And at least in the Northeast, formerly a true stronghold of eventing, we're losing eventing venues at the rate of at least one per year. The demand for events is there, but between land costs and liability concerns, the supply is diminishing.

    And BTW... QHs are not necessarily deadheads. I've known any number who were NOT, as well as a few who appeared to be dead quiet... until they weren't.... I'd much rather deal with my consistently frisky Morgan than a QH that explodes out of the blue.
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by 1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine


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  10. #90
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    Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I didn't see it. This is an editorial from 1960 from the "The Chronicle Through the Decades: 1960s": http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...ters-editorial. Just found it interesting with all of the drugging discussions going on.



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    Oy. We are talking about established show facilities that have been there for years. There ISN'T MORE LAND AVAILABLE TO THEM. Or, if there is, it is ridiculously expensive.

    The events you mention have also been in their locations for a long time. If they lost that location and had to move, they would have a problem as well, because open space is just getting too limited.

    The trainers keep these schedules going because they make money on the road, not at home. It feeds the entire "can't ride" scenario. It isn't right, but it IS the way it is today. How are you going to force them to curtail the constant travel and stay home?

    With shows of 1000 animals and up, how many paddocks do you think would have to be built to accomodate the numbers?

    There is a very good reason these horses are called "show" hunters.
    Look this thread shows the model isn't working in the horse's favor. I've come up with quite a few ideas that'd be to the horse's advantage but all I hear is that people can't or won't make the changes that are needed to allow a horse to be a horse and a rider to learn to ride.

    Do you have any better ideas? It's easy to shoot others ideas down but not so easy to solve the problem, is it?
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................



  12. #92
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    You have to base ideas somewhat in reality! The REALITY is there isn't land for paddocks at most horse shows where they are needed and you can't force the trainers to stay home and teach. That is the reality. It is NOT what I wish for, but I don't waste time harping on impossibilities. Other ideas have merit, but these just won't fly.

    Things that CAN change are the way hunters are judged and stiffer penalties for people who are caught. There are also new ways to implement these ideas. Things you CAN accomplish are where to spend your energy.

    And yes, although you certainly have a right to comment on anything you wish, you won't be taken seriously if you aren't familiar with the complete problem. You won't see me on the eventing board trying to solve their problems, because I don't live in that world and can't offer REAL WORLD solutions.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMF View Post
    Xanthoria- Strict demand doesn't make it so!
    Seems like nobody has really tried creating a demand or seeing what'd happen - they just stick a needle in as a shortcut.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMF View Post
    And just because horses are at shows during the winter doesn't mean they show week in and week out. My horse trail rides down the bridle paths on the canals a lot over the winter!
    So then you're not part of the problem. The problem that this thread is about is: people are drugging their horses instead of trail riding them or demanding turnout.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMF View Post
    And as you mentioned you live in California, does it snow there in the winter or get in the single digits most days during the winter? If I were a horse I would much rather live like my horse in the lap of luxury at WEF when it is freezing cold up north rather than shivering in an indoor,
    If by the "lap of luxury" you mean stuck in a stall 23 hours a day, then no I doubt my horses would like that at all. But then I have chosen to live in a place that's good for horses. We all make choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMF View Post
    but then again you will probably give the eventing answer that our show hunters should be let down for months over the winter, and maybe I would if I couldn't afford Florida but I can and my horse loves it there!!!
    Wrong assumption. My horses work year round: there's no need to let them down all winter when they live in pasture anyway - they just don't get that stressed, and I don't move them to showgrounds and compete for endless weeks the way hunters apparently get competed.
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    You won't see me on the eventing board trying to solve their problems, because I don't live in that world and can't offer REAL WORLD solutions.
    I'm recommending good horsekeeping and good horsemanship. That's universal. Please don't try to make this into a discipline thing.
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................


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  15. #95
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    OMG, you are seriously comparing an eventer's workload to a modern show hunter???? No eventer could EVER last trying to compete as often as hunters because they work so much harder! A show hunter has to jump eight fences, perhaps 3 times a week, maybe 6 times, at heights from 2'6" to 4'6", and maybe a lesson thrown in. Not exactly demanding, and that isn't where the wear and tear on them comes from. But to compare an eventer to a hunter, even in the same sentence, is beyond ridiculous. They are DIFFERENT.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    I'm recommending good horsekeeping and good horsemanship. That's universal. Please don't try to make this into a discipline thing.
    But it IS a discipline thing. As I said above, you have to start with ideas based in reality, that are actually achievable. What you do, how you keep your horses, nearly everything about what you do as opposed with how hunters are maintained and prepared, is just completely different. And horses, being the adaptable creatures they are, learn to live in both of these, and many other, worlds.

    The problem is what is demanded of the show hunter IN THE RING and how to either produce it without harming the horse by injection or LTD, OR changing the rules to catch cheaters, and ease the demands on the horse.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    OMG, you are seriously comparing an eventer's workload to a modern show hunter???? No eventer could EVER last trying to compete as often as hunters because they work so much harder! A show hunter has to jump eight fences, perhaps 3 times a week, maybe 6 times, at heights from 2'6" to 4'6", and maybe a lesson thrown in. Not exactly demanding, and that isn't where the wear and tear on them comes from. But to compare an eventer to a hunter, even in the same sentence, is beyond ridiculous. They are DIFFERENT.
    I don't think I ever said they were the same. Horses though, they have the same basic needs no matter what discipline.
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................


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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    But it IS a discipline thing. As I said above, you have to start with ideas based in reality, that are actually achievable. What you do, how you keep your horses, nearly everything about what you do as opposed with how hunters are maintained and prepared, is just completely different. And horses, being the adaptable creatures they are, learn to live in both of these, and many other, worlds.
    As I said before, horses have basic needs for movement and so on for their mental and physical health. Keep an eventer or a hunter stalled 24/7 and you'll have a very fresh animal. That is discipline independent.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    The problem is what is demanded of the show hunter IN THE RING and how to either produce it without harming the horse by injection or LTD, OR changing the rules to catch cheaters, and ease the demands on the horse.
    Well obviously what happens in the ring is a result of what happens outside the ring. I'm not seeing how the two things can be separated.

    You may say nobody in the world can afford to find the land to provide for turnouts and so on, I say "show managers will find a way if there's money in it for them."
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................



  19. #99
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    Xanthoria- it's not a personal attack. Though your idea is lovely, venues, let's use Devon, can't make it happen. Long gone are the days when you hunted through and literally jumped into the Dixon Oval. Financially, it is not feasible to acquire the land around it.

    Depending on your geographic location, people have to manage their horses differently. The key is "manage", this should not include drugging. I'll admit it, for me, showing at big shows bites sometimes when they have to be stalled. It meant me being at Devon late walking my mare around, being early, being the first one in the Dixon Oval (Spotsnchrome shout out!!) and putting in the effort.
    No crazy lunging for me, no drugs, no riding her to death (I'm too old and portly for that anyway...) in her class, she was not a dead head and her reward was a nice ribbon and she went home to her lovely turnout (my reward was Aleve BID for 2 days after...)

    Laurie- you seem to be wasting your breath your breath trying to explain...
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  20. #100
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    Xanthoria - You obviously are a horse management genius! (Please note my extreme sarcasm). How about this as a person who only shows in the Hunters I won't tell you things about 3 day eventing and maybe you can admit that you haven't been to enough hunter venues on the east coast to make rational and reasonable suggestions! We all get that you don't like horses getting drugs, WE GET IT! Please stop giving ridiculous suggestions and quoting one persons post 10x in your own!



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