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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by runwayz View Post
    I have seen way too many big barns that do not allow their students to come out and hack their own horse. The trainer rides 4 times a week and then the owner gets 2 lessons a week. Really? No wonder no one can ride anymore. And then the horse gets aced so its rider can have a good lesson. And of course they have a groom to tack up and untack so the owner has no "contact" with the animal. Seriously!
    Unfortunately I've seen this too. Very sad....
    Cornerstone Equestrian
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  2. #62
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    "I can't believe drugs are even an option. How about we learn to ride the horse we have underneath of us?"

    TOTALLY AGREE!

    But, also depends on if the instructor knows horses or not. Unfortunately anyone can hang out a shingle.

    And if the owner isn`t allowed to interact with the horse in every aspect of its life, how are they going to become horse knowlegeable. You have to live and breathe horses to really become a horseman and if you aren`t then you are cheating yourself and missing the best part.

    The best moments I have with my horses is in my quiet time with my horses, one on one. How else are you going to learn how to READ a horse? Don`t people have horses for enjoyment? (And I don`t mean that a horse is like a pet.)

    Seems the best place to get an equine education these days is to go to one of the cowboy gurus (not all equal, you have to be selective) who teaches horse psychology and physiology. The good ones will teach you how to affect a horse`s mind without the use of drugs or wearing them down. If a horse is settled in his mind, he will be settled in his body as well. Drugs are a crutch for people who don`t know any other way. Very sad situation that indeed, these hyper horses would be put down or discarded if the trainers and owners didn`t have access to drugs to give them....but, it all goes back to the owner and what their short comings are and how much of a mental committment they want to give. It`s not the horses fault that the owner doesn`t know any better for whatever reason, and there are a lot of reasons. Some do not even know what is possible, others do not believe that it IS possible.

    One must embrace the fact that they will always be a forever student, and do what they need to do to become a better horseman, for themselves as well as the horses that they own. Horses are not programable vehicles but instead are "thinking, breathing and decision making animals" with a mind. Ray Hunt

    Learn how to release the animal from it`s mental anxiety, let it be "sure" with its person and you will have a calm horse. It is so simple most people overlook it.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by re-runs View Post
    Learn how to release the animal from it`s mental anxiety, let it be "sure" with its person and you will have a calm horse. It is so simple most people overlook it.
    That's lovely and true. IME horses who are wiggy are the ones who don't understand their job. I just adore riding a horse who quietly does his job because I taught him to trust my direction. These animals are so kind and willing. All it really takes is a clear set of instructions to make them able to cruise around in the way we'd like.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  4. #64
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    There's a wonderful quote from the old Cavalry Manual that in essence says that any training program that upsets a horse's tranquility is a defective training program.

    It's one thing for a horse to be tranquil and manageable and quite another thing to be dulled and half dead.

    A well trained and tranquil horse won't go to pieces at a show, in general.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocksolid View Post
    I think Laurie hit it right on the head. The non-prep horse is almost non existant. When you can find them, they are 6 figures or above. People can afford what they can afford. Lets not forget the endless lounging that goes on at the shows. In the long run, who is going to have more long term problems, the horse that is lounged everyday in small circles or the one who got a small hit of Ace? JMO
    It's not that the non-prep horse is non-existent. It's that the non-prep horse who is also a 10+ mover and jumper is almost non-existent.

    But then that is because the quiet non-prep horse has to compete against all of the prepped horses. So we are choosing good movers and jumpers because we can prep them and win. Whereas it's a lot harder to take the quiet horse that requires no prep to be quiet that is an average mover or jumper and turn him into the winner.

    It's all about the choices we (as an industry) have made.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravencrest_Camp View Post
    It's not that the non-prep horse is non-existent. It's that the non-prep horse who is also a 10+ mover and jumper is almost non-existent.

    But then that is because the quiet non-prep horse has to compete against all of the prepped horses. So we are choosing good movers and jumpers because we can prep them and win. Whereas it's a lot harder to take the quiet horse that requires no prep to be quiet that is an average mover or jumper and turn him into the winner.

    It's all about the choices we (as an industry) have made.
    What exactly have you "won" if this is how you're "winning?" What exactly then has become the true nature of this contest? Outside of its profitability to "trainers," does it have a reason to exist anymore?

    The sad truth is a lot of disciplines today aren't about horsemanship, or even the horse himself anymore; they're just ego-feeding machines for people who barely even understand what they're doing or why they want to be there.
    Take away the social-climbing aspect and who would be left?
    Maybe the "real" ones.


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravencrest_Camp View Post
    It's not that the non-prep horse is non-existent. It's that the non-prep horse who is also a 10+ mover and jumper is almost non-existent.

    But then that is because the quiet non-prep horse has to compete against all of the prepped horses. So we are choosing good movers and jumpers because we can prep them and win. Whereas it's a lot harder to take the quiet horse that requires no prep to be quiet that is an average mover or jumper and turn him into the winner.

    It's all about the choices we (as an industry) have made.
    Mmm,hmm. I had one of these nice-minded ones. He was fabulous every.single.day. Same horse anywhere, I could get him all the way from a muddy field to the show ring by myself if I had to.

    But he was a 2nd place, B+ kind of horse. He won because he was rideable and therefore consistent. But he wasn't fancy. I suspect that in judge's eyes, there was a big gap between him and the horses that won. Those horses just moved better and were more expressive over fences. If one of those could put in a few good rounds, they'd beat mine even though mine "punched the clock" day after day after day with his plainer rounds.

    I'm proud of the horse I made. I was awed by his intelligence and kindness. I chose his mind, in part because I didn't know a lot. I had ridden crazy/hot/fried and knew that I didn't want that and couldn't train or sell that. I didn't know how to cheat with drugs the way I think an ammy with a sophisticated trainer might have.

    But this horse's default setting was "Good Ol' Boy Casual" and I was never going to "fix" that.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  8. #68
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    Let me ask this. Are people wanting a Non-prep horse or a quiet horse? Or both? Do they want a non-prep horse because they are lazy? Lack of time? Certainly not a lack of money if they can afford to go to the show. I can understand why someone would want a quiet horse. They want something safe that they won't get hurt on. Now do they want a quiet horse because they are an easy ride for that blue ribbon and it is easy satisfaction?

    I guess I just don't understand why then that these people want to do the whole horse show thing. To me it is the satisfaction of training-prepping-showing-results that make it all worth it. This drugging is a quick fix. It is not teaching the horse anything. If you are having to use drugs then your training is lacking and your horses training is lacking.

    I know some people don't have the luxury of having their horses in their backyard to ride them everyday. Some people are over-horsed and that can be a confidence killer. People work full time and have kids and a life that doesn't allow you to ride your horse as much as you should. But really, quarter horses are not all that bad. I have had a few that had a heck of a stride.


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  9. #69
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    How about just building some turnout paddocks at the horse shows?


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  10. #70
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    I think that there is a big difference between supplements like perfect prep and injecting medicines with the intention of calming. Frankly the horses would be much better off if supplements like perfect prep were used, maybe some horses could spend less time on the lounge line then. I will say again though no matter how USEF closes the door on injectable Magnesium, someone will find a window to another medicine



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinky View Post
    How about just building some turnout paddocks at the horse shows?
    Some shows do have them (e.g. Saugerties), but it requires space, which is at a premium on many showgrounds... and some sort of fee/coordination by show staff/liability questions if a horse is injured on the fence etc.

    The jumpers trainer at my barn gets as many horses/riders as possible out for a good long hack early in the morning. Now of course this is jumpers, not hunters, so dead quiet is *not* what he's looking for, but he thinks it's a good practice for any horse that's not used to being stalled 24/7.
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine



  12. #72
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    Ace is not the answer. Judging more softly is not the answer. Training the horse with the good mind IS the answer. I did not pay 6 figures for my horse. She is still young, but is very quiet. We get to the show, tie her to the trailer, tack her up, warm up for 10-15 minutes, then show. No lunging, no ace, no wearing her out. I bought her due to her brains. It is nice that she wins all the hacks and a beautiful jump, but #1 was a good mind. She does not have to be rode every day, but she does get a good amount of turn-out. She rides in a plain snaffle with a regular nose band and is super-easy. I looked all over to find her, but horses like her are out there. You just might have to beat the bushes!
    Boarding for Show, Pleasure, and Retirement horses. www.LockeMeadows.com


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  13. #73
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    The million dollar question here seems to be what is the bigger evil and how do we fix it?

    We've got a mess of problems - does anyone have a legitimate solution for solving them? If not, can you figure out a way to solve most of them?

    Problem: "Exhibitors can't ride."
    -Most people can't afford to be on a horse every single day, whether it's financial or time. Do you really want to drive off those that are interested but maybe can't commit 110%?

    Problem: "We're losing numbers each year because more people are quitting the sport."
    -See the first problem. Do you want to kvetch about people not being the next equestrian superstar or do you want the industry to die?

    Problem: "We don't have enough horses that are the 'total' package."
    -Brains AND beauty. When you've got a limited budget for a horse and for a show, I assume the average person would rather be on a horse that *can* win versus one that is dead broke.
    Personally, I had both. I had my big TB that was an A mover but required me to be on my best game to ride the sucker. I also have my paint mare that will jump anything, anytime and has a great mind, but a 10.5' stride and places last in every class against the big, pretty movers. It's a real downer to pay money to take her out and exhibit knowing that even if we have a fantastic round, we're going to either have to have everyone else make huge mistakes or end up in the bottom of the class. I preferred to take out my big guy and at least have a chance, despite the prep time he required.


    Drugs are *not* the answer, at least for a permanent solution. But if anyone has any idea on getting breeders to produce quality, competitive horses at reasonable prices, mandating trainers produce competent riders with what the client provides them in terms of budget for lessons, and keeping this fun for everyone involved - I would love to hear it. It seems to me that until that can be done, more kvetching isn't going to solve anything - and I'd rather see 1cc of Ace on board than a rider being carted off on a stretcher. IMO, it's the lesser of the evils, even though I don't agree with it.
    Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.



  14. #74
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    People have no patience anymore. We're a society of immediate gratification. If it's too hard, we don't want to do it. So often we see riders overhorsed by the fancy mount, jumping jumps that they lack the technical skill to be able to clear safely. Instead of investing in a steady eddie who, while not fancy, will teach a young rider volumes about riding and horsemanship they go out and get the fancy thing and try to make it work which is where ace and other drugs of convienience come in.

    Instead of changing rules, how about we change the mentality about what the sport is really about?


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle View Post
    We've got a mess of problems - does anyone have a legitimate solution for solving them? If not, can you figure out a way to solve most of them?
    Several solutions have been offered: turnout facilities at shows, a more relaxed attitude in judges towards friskiness, and a change of mentality in horse owners towards the real needs of an animal the does best with lots of space and movement every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle View Post
    Problem: "Exhibitors can't ride."
    -Most people can't afford to be on a horse every single day, whether it's financial or time. Do you really want to drive off those that are interested but maybe can't commit 110%?
    Showing is not a right. If you can't afford to ride a horse enough to safely show it this year, stay home and learn how so you can show next year.

    If you need multiple lessons per week to ride a horse safely, perhaps you're not ready to show.

    If the choice is drugging horses or losing people from the sport, then yes - let's lose those people who feel drugging is a better choice, vs managing their horse appropriately.

    You don't need to ride a horse every day to make is sane - you need to be committed to riding a few times a week and ensuring your horse has proper turnout and exercise the rest of the time, if you can't/won't keep it in pasture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle View Post
    Problem: "We're losing numbers each year because more people are quitting the sport."
    -See the first problem. Do you want to kvetch about people not being the next equestrian superstar or do you want the industry to die?
    Could be people are quitting because of their disgust over the drugging and expense?

    I don't think the industry is going to die if we stop people drugging their horses, or tell them to woman up and learn to ride. Anyone who wants ribbons handed to them on a platter is just going to pay someone else to do the turnout/pasture/hacks for them, just as they currently pay someone to lunge and Ace their horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arelle View Post
    Problem: "We don't have enough horses that are the 'total' package."
    -Brains AND beauty. When you've got a limited budget for a horse and for a show, I assume the average person would rather be on a horse that *can* win versus one that is dead broke.
    Look to the UK, New Zealand, Australia et al. Countries with a longer tradition of showing than the USA, with the popular working hunter divisions where horses gallop around an outside track. There is no "slow lope around a few smallish fences" class. How do these people avoid dying and suing each other? Not by drugging, and not by obeying the every word of their trainer or handing horses off to grooms. (What trainer? What grooms?) They have a completely different model of horse keeping: on pasture for much if not all of the time. They also have strong Pony Clubs and hunts that teach kids strong riding. So they can be ready to handle a horse.

    Why are we rewarding poor riding and encouraging the business model of helplessness that's sprung up?

    Since the A shows are all about $$$ just test every horse, do away with lunge areas, install a gallop track and watch as trainers jump to charge their clients for those services instead. Those who can't afford that level of trainer assistance will then find themselves on a more equal footing, as they can probably do that stuff themselves.
    ............................................
    http://www.xanthoria.com/OTTB
    ............................................


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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derby Lyn Farms View Post
    Let me ask this. Are people wanting a Non-prep horse or a quiet horse? Or both? Do they want a non-prep horse because they are lazy? Lack of time? Certainly not a lack of money if they can afford to go to the show. I can understand why someone would want a quiet horse. They want something safe that they won't get hurt on. Now do they want a quiet horse because they are an easy ride for that blue ribbon and it is easy satisfaction?
    I can't speak for everyone, but I bought my quiet horse because he is super fun to ride pretty much every time I get on. Quiet does not equal dull; I'd define quiet as good minded - which means they can be plenty lively while remaining tractable. Mine is fancy enough that he can win plenty IF I ride well enough, but he isn't an automaton... I don't believe I've "bought" any blue ribbons.

    FWIW, I didn't buy that horse because I was lazy; I bought him because the much hotter, more difficult horse I'd invested EIGHT YEARS of training into often just wasn't that much fun and I got tired of feeling like I was beating my head against the wall all the time.

    Even with daily rides, twice-weekly lessons from a competent professional, tons of turnout and all the talent in the world, that horse just wasn't an amateur's ride at the end of the day. On a good day he was the winner anywhere, but there were many, many other times when he simply wasn't going to play, and it just didn't matter how hard you worked or how well you rode.

    He is a very, very, very well educated horse and I love him to death, but he never really did get "broke" in the true sense of the word. Like a lot of working amateurs, I don't get to show that often due to other work and family responsibilities, and it just stopped being fun to invest all that time, effort and yes, money into a horse that might or might not get up on the wrong side of his bed on any given day. My "quiet" horse is going to give me his best effort every time. That doesn't mean I always win; it means I can always count on him to do what I tell him to the best of his considerable ability (including chipping the first jump, LOL, but them's the breaks.)


    I guess I just don't understand why then that these people want to do the whole horse show thing. To me it is the satisfaction of training-prepping-showing-results that make it all worth it. This drugging is a quick fix. It is not teaching the horse anything. If you are having to use drugs then your training is lacking and your horses training is lacking.
    Personally I find it a lot more gratifying to train a horse that actually progresses under that training, allowing both of us to improve. I enjoy showing but find it's a lot more fun to show a horse that I know is going to try his best for me than it was to show my other horse, who might or might not decide to play on any given day, no matter how well I rode. I don't believe in drugging on any number of levels, so won't comment on that other than to note that Ace has NEVER been legal - it's just that in years past, no one bothered to have any D&M rules, so its use was widespread.

    I know some people don't have the luxury of having their horses in their backyard to ride them everyday. Some people are over-horsed and that can be a confidence killer. People work full time and have kids and a life that doesn't allow you to ride your horse as much as you should. But really, quarter horses are not all that bad. I have had a few that had a heck of a stride.
    The point is that you don't HAVE to buy a QH in order to get something quiet. My horse is a WB and was born with a kind, tractable temperament. Even as a dead green youngster, he was a steady sort who always tried his best to do what was asked of him. I've had him for 8 years and he has been the winner in some pretty good company, but mostly I just enjoy how fun he is to ride. The fact that I can pull him off the trailer to show in any venue and have the same horse I have at home is just a huge bonus.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Several solutions have been offered: turnout facilities at shows, a more relaxed attitude in judges towards friskiness, and a change of mentality in horse owners towards the real needs of an animal the does best with lots of space and movement every day.
    Yes - but all of these things take time. And what about facilities that can't put in turnout facilities? How do we define "real needs" in a one size fits all - at what point do you say the horse is a more advanced ride versus being unsuitable for the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Showing is not a right. If you can't afford to ride a horse enough to safely show it this year, stay home and learn how so you can show next year.
    Do you show? Where? On what level? The industry at large is made up of amateurs who want to learn to ride in order to show. Do you really think this will go over well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    If you need multiple lessons per week to ride a horse safely, perhaps you're not ready to show.
    Even below you say (and I'll quote) that you need to be committed to riding a few times a week. When the majority of people ride once per week, you end up with riders who don't progress as fast but still want to go show. Your answer will be stay home - see above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    If the choice is drugging horses or losing people from the sport, then yes - let's lose those people who feel drugging is a better choice, vs managing their horse appropriately.
    In the long term, I agree. But what about now? What can we do NOW to stop it? It can't all come crashing down at once. That will fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    You don't need to ride a horse every day to make is sane - you need to be committed to riding a few times a week and ensuring your horse has proper turnout and exercise the rest of the time, if you can't/won't keep it in pasture.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Could be people are quitting because of their disgust over the drugging and expense?
    I very, very much doubt that is the or even A reason 99% of people stop showing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    I don't think the industry is going to die if we stop people drugging their horses, or tell them to woman up and learn to ride. Anyone who wants ribbons handed to them on a platter is just going to pay someone else to do the turnout/pasture/hacks for them, just as they currently pay someone to lunge and Ace their horses.
    Most already do pay their trainers to ride/turnout/warm up at shows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Look to the UK, New Zealand, Australia et al. Countries with a longer tradition of showing than the USA, with the popular working hunter divisions where horses gallop around an outside track. There is no "slow lope around a few smallish fences" class. How do these people avoid dying and suing each other? Not by drugging, and not by obeying the every word of their trainer or handing horses off to grooms. (What trainer? What grooms?) They have a completely different model of horse keeping: on pasture for much if not all of the time. They also have strong Pony Clubs and hunts that teach kids strong riding. So they can be ready to handle a horse.
    Good for them. That is NOT the US. You cannot say that what works for them will work for us. That would be like me providing an example comparing Saudi women to American women, although not quite as extreme. Different culture, different geography. Do you know how difficult it is to find affordable pasture board in Dallas? Or most urban areas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Why are we rewarding poor riding and encouraging the business model of helplessness that's sprung up?

    Since the A shows are all about $$$ just test every horse, do away with lunge areas, install a gallop track and watch as trainers jump to charge their clients for those services instead. Those who can't afford that level of trainer assistance will then find themselves on a more equal footing, as they can probably do that stuff themselves.
    A gallop track would be a disaster. Disaster.
    Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    That's not fair. First, there is not "by that logic." You can make analogies from little to big, but it doesn't help the trainer do otherwise.

    See, imagine being the pro who's 40 or so and can't stand the drugging business anymore. The problem is that she has been a professional horse trainer since she was 20. She may or may not have any college education, and even if she does she hasn't worked in white collar field for the majority of her professional life. She most likely has lot of mileage on her body and needs health insurance. She may or may not have built enough of a reputation that she could go into some other lucrative branch of horsing like sales only or writing books or becoming a sought-after clinician who travels. Perhaps she could become a judge-- but what would she be able to watch and reward but more drugged horses?

    So you can wag your finger at this pro and make her feel "shoulda,coulda,woulda" about her lack of experience in other fields. You can tell her to humble herself and start at the bottom in an office job, get a real estate license, become a lab tech or get her RN degree. But she's competing with spring chicken 23-year-olds with newly minted college degrees that aren't worth much either. If she makes a profit at her horse training job, she could plot her escape-- keep working for a few more years, socking away money so that she can go back to school. Or she can borrow and join the ranks of students struggling under student debt-- and she can do that much closer to retirement age and with a beat-up body.

    So it will come as no surprise that this archetypal trainer instead "keeps on keepin' on". The alternative-- when you get away from abstract logic and into the real details confronting a person-- isn't tenable.
    Insert the phrase "Stay At Home Mom" trying to return to the work force after rearing her kids....would you suggest that she does not face the same obstacles?



  19. #79
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    "Whatever happened to people having partnerships with their horses, owning them for 15 years and progressing up the levels together, being a team. Now it seems people just buy the biggest fanciest thing they can afford, jab it full of drugs and take it to the show."

    When was that? I want that reality.

    I'm reminded of the quote in Secondhand Lions by the character Hub: "Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."

    The folks that are cheating or have the money to buy the dead quiet supermoverjumper whose trainers will do whatever it takes to keep the horse going aren't on this board.



  20. #80
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    I'm not going to get into the politics of the question - "would re-legalization...." but I will answer the OP's question.

    One note. Acepromazine was never "legal." There was simply a time when it - and nothing else was tested for.

    Would it prevent death by magnesium. Absolutely.



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