[Dramapony_misty]

I think Laurie hit it right on the head. The non-prep horse is almost non existant.

Sure they do...they're called Quarter Horses. But heaven forbid you show up at an A-rated hunter show with one of those "cow ponies".

[Discobold]

I've used Ace in bringing a horse back from an injury. It's not a substitute for training but might actually be less harmful than hours of lunging that can be tough on the joints. Not taking a position, just saying. . .

[Laurierace]

...and THAT right there is part of the problem. We have trainers out there convincing kids that ace is better in the long run compared to lunging or schooling. I am completely disgusted. Cheating is cheating is cheating. Its as simple as that. Instead of explaining to parents or students that drugging is frowned upon, they INSTEAD convince them they are doing the horse a favor! Learn to ride already, or better yet, learn to actually teach students how to ride.

Stricter rules and harsher punishments that actually sting would set a few people straight.

Well since this was on the race track there obviously wasn't a kid riding the horse and it was not illegal or cheating. It was good horsemanship. Allowing a horse to tie up every day is inhumane.

[WARDen]

I edited my post, I had quoted the wrong one.

If you want to ace at home or in the woods, have at it, but I have a very strong opinion against trainers that lack the morals and ethics to do whats right for both the horse and rider at horse shows.. They convince people that it makes the whole situation safer to just dope him/her up. If your horse is acting up or is a bit too hot

A- dont show
B- ride it out of him

[SwampYankee]

Why do they need Ace or anything at all?? I do NOT get it. I have never given my horse anything in the 20 years I have been riding, and I ride some HOT horses.

If you need to drug your horse at home to "train" it, then you are doing something wrong. You also are not ready to show.

You shouldn't need to lunge your horse for hours either. It's called proper riding and training, that seems to be where the problem is starting.

Whatever happened to people having partnerships with their horses, owning them for 15 years and progressing up the levels together, being a team. Now it seems people just buy the biggest fanciest thing they can afford, jab it full of drugs and take it to the show.

THIS^. Eloquently said. This is "sport?"

[lauriep]

First of all, I am not advocating this change, just presenting some arguments on the pro side.

The hunter world today IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE AGAIN a place where trainers all know what they are doing, kids hang out with their ponies/horses that they keep at home, and adults ride five a day. That is not the hunter world, no matter how we wish it was. The judges demand, or at least the trainers believe they do, robotic quietness, and most amateur riders do not want to ride a playful horse through it. So PLEASE stop saying get a different horse or learn to ride. It is just not the situation as it is TODAY.

So, dealing with reality, and wanting to 1) rid the sport of dangerous drugs and practices and 2) keep the horses as sound as possible for as long as possible, and knowing that the next "it" drug is just around the bend, what can be done?

Up the punishments with each offense and make them really hurt the pocketbook. Do more testing. Incentivize clean sport. Insist that judges be lenient with behavior (how lenient)? Let everyone show on up to 1cc of Ace. Longe longer and harder. What else???

[bumknees]

i rode a horse how by today stadnards would be dangerous. ie stoping, nasty stopping, tossing me into jumps, and so on so foth... in the 80s... others also had the had the same problem with their horses. the differaence now and then we learned to ride what we had, granted mostley tb, ( i had a unruley qh).

i image there were drugs not out from my farm this know becaus i was i one who helped get them readey for show. that and they act the same at hame.

why dnt trainer what concept traine.. isteated of teach something that you have to firs lune,then dope, then who knows what before you ride...

i can understand a terapuitc but to show learn to ride

[fair judy]

lauriep speaks volumes. listen.

[Equibrit]

Apparently, some horses and ponies need to be "calmed" during a show.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

[MMF]

Anyone belong to the equestrian team during their college years. I KNOW that some of the horses we were riding were given Ace in the morning, how do I know because I witnessed it. Also I had friends who attended a college specializing in equestrian studies and they also did! Not advocating its use Im just pointing out that it happens.

[Dinah-do]

A very possible solution for horse show drugging is to drop the hunter divisions. The whole can of worms is gone. The classes are getting smaller all the time anyway.

[MMF]

Dinah-do
1. Unfortunately what most exhibitors don't realize is that the pre-adult/pre-childrens and adult/ children's divisions bring in a significant amount of the revenue that pays for the jumper divisions prize money!
2. I was at Lake Placid several years back where a jumper was given DMSO and died on the cross ties, so for anyone to only blame the hunters is sad. Unfortunately it is a competition and some people will do anything to win, hunters and jumpers alike!

[Ghazzu]

Apparently, some horses and ponies need to be "calmed" during a show.

Not. Horses and ponies don't need "calming".
The possibilities are:
--horse needs more training.
--rider needs more training.
--judging criteria need to more accurately reflect what a "hunter" is
--horse is not suited for the job.

[/quote]

[Dinah-do]

I am sure some areas still have a strong hunter division but in my area the little classes are lucky to have 4 entries and there are zip 3'6" hunters. I have no idea what the bottom line is but the entries versus expenses dollars is getting closer all the time. I know i would go eventing before paying mucho dollars to play in an Ace playpen.

[Ghazzu]

What you people are not understanding is that with the judging as it is, there aren't ENOUGH "horses more suited for the job" to go around. And the elephant in the room is the fact that the RIDERS don't want to ride a horse that may pull a little. It is not just the judging that drives this bus.

I think we get it, laurie. We just don't think that the riders' desire to not have to actually *ride* justify drugging their horses.

It's not limited to the hunter ring. It's part and parcel of the current common mindset that nothing should require effort to succeed at.

Like the college student who thinks that paying tuition should guarantee an A. Who needs to study?

[horsechick]

I think we get it, laurie. We just don't think that the riders' desire to not have to actually *ride* justify drugging their horses.

It's not limited to the hunter ring. It's part and parcel of the current common mindset that nothing should require effort to succeed at.

Like the college student who thinks that paying tuition should guarantee an A. Who needs to study?

This. I show my stallion which requires me to get up at 4:30 on horse show mornings to flat him before the ring gets crowded. I make my clients come early (not THAT early though!) to get their horses out for a hack to stretch their legs. For the most part they do it, but there is always a little grumbling about the early hours. It takes TIME to prep horses for showing and in this immediate gratification society, it seems fewer are willing to make that investment.

[Angelico]

1. Learn to ride

2. Much more testing (and don't complain about the $, I pitch plenty at the USEF/USHJA, they CAN afford it) and harsher, longer standing punishments

3. When we take away the chemicals, we subject many horses to being LTD. Why not a ring steward that monitors lungers? Any horse lunged over X amount of time is DQed and/or trainer fined. This would be controversial, but it's not an awful idea.

4. No medications can be given on the grounds by anyone but a licensed veterinarian.

5. Courses that require an alert horse to be in tune with the rider. The majority of hunter courses, even in most of the feature classes, are too easy. Point and shoot. Create courses that require the horse to be awake.

6. Pay more attention to the "little" rings. That is where the majority of it goes on.

7. Learn to ride.

[BostonHJ]

I have been thinking about the hunter/drug problem a lot lately, as I'm sure everyone has. I stick to jumper land, so don't really have a dog in the fight, but wonder if they could take the high-performance divisions and make amateur-only sections? That way someone with a horse with a great jump but some extra "sparkle" wouldn't be competing against someone with the horse that is dead quiet (IMHO, too quiet). There could be an AA or A/O hunter division and an AA or A/O high performance division, and give the horses that are brilliant but need a little riding a place to shine (and a place for their riders, too).

I wish the way the hunters as a whole were judged would change overnight, but that is not going to happen, so perhaps an extra dvision would be an alternative? It is strange to me how this happened. Even at 31, I remember the non-thoroughbred division well, and when I sold my jumper to semi-retire to AA hunter land, there was a really concern that his frame was too heavy. This was a slightly thicker but by no means drafty Oldenburg.

[Xanthoria]

So, dealing with reality, and wanting to 1) rid the sport of dangerous drugs and practices and 2) keep the horses as sound as possible for as long as possible, and knowing that the next "it" drug is just around the bend, what can be done?

Up the punishments with each offense and make them really hurt the pocketbook. Do more testing. Incentivize clean sport. Insist that judges be lenient with behavior (how lenient)? Let everyone show on up to 1cc of Ace. Longe longer and harder. What else???

I agree with upping punishment, more testing, incentivizing clean sport. Why do the solutions people come up with have to be to the horse's detriment? Why drug or lunge for "hours" - why not go for a gallop or hack for an hour or two if you want a calm horse? Are these showgrounds so painfully tiny that that cannot be accomplished? No. They're big and yet the riders and trainers can't be bothered.

Just think how much a trainer could charge for having a row of assistants hack the horses for an hour plus per day! I'm sure they charge to lunge as it is. Let the nickel and diming of the competitor at least be to the advantage of the horse - they'd be happier and healthier (and by the end of the season incredibly fit *cackle* )

Oh and if showgrounds really wanted to make money hand over fist why don't more of them build turnouts? I'm sure they could charge hourly for those...

[Jumphigh83]

Hard to believe this is even considered an option. Wow.