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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2009
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    77

    Default Would re-legalization of Ace stop Magnesium deaths?

    Let me start by saying that I have never "Aced" my horse before a show, but I do remember the time when it was common. I do not recall any deaths.

    Apparently, some horses and ponies need to be "calmed" during a show. The fact remains that currently Magnesium cannot be tested for, and yet kills innocent horses and ponies. It seems likely that because magnesium cannot be tested, it will continue to be abused and horses and ponies will die.

    What is the solution? I am not a fan of Ace for showing, but if re-legalizing it will prevent death by magnesium, it may be the solution (at least until a test for Mg is found).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 13, 2005
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    3,891

    Default

    I think it'd be interesting.

    I'd rather see .5cc ace vs. endless LTD, year after year. No wonder why they need such an absurd maintenance plan as they age.

    There are many a horse who can plod along just fine without it - the born dead broke type. Generally far too expensive to purchase, if they are attractive, etc.

    Also the argument we expect too much out of them in the hunter ring.

    Or we lack 'horsemanship' these days.

    Not sure what I buy into. But I do know there is far too much prep required for the average horse. Then far too much maintenance when they hit 8yo.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
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    3,614

    Default

    Why do people find it ok to jump their horses over sometimes very large fences while they are chemically altered yet the idea of driving on a few cocktails screams danger ?

    More so what about the parents that allow their children to get on a 600lb plus pony and gallop at jumps knowing that the pony has been chemically manipulated. You might as well give the neighbor a bottle of whine belt your kid in their car and send them out on the freeway.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    8 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,635

    Default

    This might be a crazy idea, but what if we just made The Ideal to which show hunters aspire more realistic? Why trade doping for doping?
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory


    9 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2011
    Location
    Westchester, NY
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    2,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hackinaround View Post
    Why do people find it ok to jump their horses over sometimes very large fences while they are chemically altered yet the idea of driving on a few cocktails screams danger ?
    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    This might be a crazy idea, but what if we just made The Ideal to which show hunters aspire more realistic?
    ^^^These


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2001
    Posts
    6,707

    Default

    I think folks have forgotten a wonderful piece of drug literature, "Drugs and the Performance Horse" by Tobin. In it is a clear study of how even as little as 0.004 mg/kg of Ace can disrupt a horse's coordination (page 233, Figure 14-4). Yeah, that will make the sport so much safer!

    Contrary to what some so called horsemen claim, the data shows the Ace is a dangerous drug if given to a horse that is expected to utilize all of it's faculties.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2008
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    4,585

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    This might be a crazy idea, but what if we just made The Ideal to which show hunters aspire more realistic? Why trade doping for doping?
    Just "crazy" enough to work.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,269

    Default

    I described the Humble thing to an BTDT trainer who's about 70. Ace was her first suggestion as a solution to what we have now.

    She is a fan of the TBs and clients who actually learn to ride. But she understands that we have forever wanted hunters to be quiets. A realist, and someone old enough to have seen the Ace era first hand, she seemed to think it was the lesser of two evils.

    I think it's impossible for purely political reasons. In the current context, the USEF will never go toward a drug as a solution to its drug problem.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
    Location
    Goochland, VA
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    8,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I think folks have forgotten a wonderful piece of drug literature, "Drugs and the Performance Horse" by Tobin. In it is a clear study of how even as little as 0.004 mg/kg of Ace can disrupt a horse's coordination (page 233, Figure 14-4). Yeah, that will make the sport so much safer!

    Contrary to what some so called horsemen claim, the data shows the Ace is a dangerous drug if given to a horse that is expected to utilize all of it's faculties.
    And yet, thousands of foxhunters go up hill and down dale several times a week with a cc or so with no problem. And horses are trained at home with no problem, or taken to non-rated shows. In over 40 years in the sport, I have never seen, nor heard of, an accident proven to be related to a horse having a low level of Ace. Vets have told me repeatedly how safe a drug it is. How do you explain this? And most people would be hard pressed to identify an animal who has had 1cc or less.

    Most of the old trainers who were around for the days of Ace think that that is, indeed, a solution. That will never happen.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2001
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    12th floor of the Acme building in a city that knows how to keep it's secrets.
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    Default

    Sadly, today the first thing a hunter has to be is quiet. Not a good jumper, not a good mover, but quiet. As far as I am concerned, there are two solutions that are better for the horses than what we have now.

    1-Get the judging standards to change. The hard part about this is, your 2'6" adult horse SHOULD first be quiet. As should the ponies. And the childrens and adult horses. Manners count in these divisions, as they should. And when you're sitting in the judges box, watching 40 adult horses go around, you need a separator. This one dolphined, that one didn't.

    2- Ace.

    Neither of these things will happen.
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2005
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    1,617

    Default

    There are m any side affects to Ace that the average horseman may not be aware of and should read up on.
    How about plain old training? Less shows, more turn out? teaching rider to actually RIDE? Pick a horse more suited to the job?
    Giving anything a performance altering drug of any kind for any reason to me is a short cut for lack of skill or patience and can put both in danger. As for foxhunters hunting under the influence? Learn how to ride or get a different horse!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 28, 2001
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    over yonder
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copper1 View Post
    Pick a horse more suited to the job?

    ^^This ^^
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    What you people are not understanding is that with the judging as it is, there aren't ENOUGH "horses more suited for the job" to go around. And the elephant in the room is the fact that the RIDERS don't want to ride a horse that may pull a little. It is not just the judging that drives this bus.

    The good jumping, good moving horse that takes zero prep to get to the ring, under today's judging, are almost non-existant. And horrendously expensive when they are found. So now, what?
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,986

    Default

    How about breed and buy for temperament? There is a post right now on the breeding forum about breeding a hot mare. Plus I hear so many times: "I'll breed her and it will settle her down". NO!

    There have been studies on domesticating wild animals. Only the calmest were bred for the next generation. It was amazing how quickly they became friendly.

    Let breeders know that you want a good mind!

    It is not difficult to pick out young horses with good minds. My last yearling purchase was from a breeder. I had three or four to look at. I led them around and came home with the one that was least reactive to new things. He was curious, not fearful. He is now three, just starting under saddle, and has a great mind.

    And now as long as I'm preaching .... I doubt they are breeding for brains in Europe. They are breeding jumpers. Stay home and buy our American bred horses.
    friend of bar.ka


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 20, 2004
    Location
    North East
    Posts
    2,172

    Default

    The jumpers (and any horse for that matter) in Europe are definitely bred with great brains in mind.

    A great brain does not always equate to quiet horse in the competition ring.
    friend of bar*ka


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2004
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    139

    Default

    I think Laurie hit it right on the head. The non-prep horse is almost non existant. When you can find them, they are 6 figures or above. People can afford what they can afford. Lets not forget the endless lounging that goes on at the shows. In the long run, who is going to have more long term problems, the horse that is lounged everyday in small circles or the one who got a small hit of Ace? JMO


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2009
    Posts
    3,256

    Default

    "WE" as US riders/trainers/judges have developed over the years a segment of the sport - hunters - that cannot effectively function without drugs. The horse must be quiet, the riders want them to be quiet, the judge wants them quiet so the way many of them get there is some type of chemical assistance.
    I can't for the life of me understand the logic that effectively says "lets have a drugged horse set of classes" Advertise to all owners and riders and sponsors that Ace is our legal drug of choice because its the only way we can get people to enter their horses and support our horse show. Add one more vendor both - get your Ace here. Tell your friends that you drug your horse so it won't go too fast around a corner at a show. Explain to your kids that this is an ok way to compete.

    Right now we call it cheating. Ace supporters are effectively making process legal. That to me is a not a solution, it is a caving in because the alternatives are too hard, too expensive, and most importantly because they risk the financial infrastructure that is the hunter world.

    Sad, really sad.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........


    6 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2007
    Location
    Napanee ON
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    4,098

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rocksolid View Post
    I think Laurie hit it right on the head. The non-prep horse is almost non existant. When you can find them, they are 6 figures or above. People can afford what they can afford. Lets not forget the endless lounging that goes on at the shows. In the long run, who is going to have more long term problems, the horse that is lounged everyday in small circles or the one who got a small hit of Ace? JMO
    Why do they need Ace or anything at all?? I do NOT get it. I have never given my horse anything in the 20 years I have been riding, and I ride some HOT horses.

    If you need to drug your horse at home to "train" it, then you are doing something wrong. You also are not ready to show.

    You shouldn't need to lunge your horse for hours either. It's called proper riding and training, that seems to be where the problem is starting.

    Whatever happened to people having partnerships with their horses, owning them for 15 years and progressing up the levels together, being a team. Now it seems people just buy the biggest fanciest thing they can afford, jab it full of drugs and take it to the show.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
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    19,854

    Default

    I had one filly that got a cc of ace every day before she went to the track to gallop otherwise she tied up. Made it around every time.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2012
    Posts
    119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rocksolid View Post
    I think Laurie hit it right on the head. The non-prep horse is almost non existant. When you can find them, they are 6 figures or above. People can afford what they can afford. Lets not forget the endless lounging that goes on at the shows. In the long run, who is going to have more long term problems, the horse that is lounged everyday in small circles or the one who got a small hit of Ace? JMO
    ...and THAT right there is part of the problem. We have trainers out there convincing kids that ace is better in the long run compared to lunging or schooling. I am completely disgusted. Cheating is cheating is cheating. Its as simple as that. Instead of explaining to parents or students that drugging is frowned upon, they INSTEAD convince them they are doing the horse a favor! Learn to ride already, or better yet, learn to actually teach students how to ride.

    Stricter rules and harsher punishments that actually sting would set a few people straight.
    Last edited by WARDen; Jun. 8, 2012 at 08:52 AM. Reason: misquote
    Tinker Toy & Blue Bonnett


    5 members found this post helpful.

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