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  1. #41
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    Jan. 21, 2000
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    Milford, CT
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    American's would be much healthier if they ate Less Meat.

    Read Diet for a new America by John Robbins.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 1999
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    Maryland
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    16,625

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
    Although I agree with many of the arguments, I have always thought that AR fights battles it has no hope of winning and that are especially abhorrent to the general public. And I will never be a vegan or not use leather. But I do believe there are better ways to obtain them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Maybe it goes along with what MB Stark said, about having people at the far ends of the issue to help find a "happy middle."

    I don't know that any AR group really expects that dairy cattle will become extinct. I think they just want to challenge people to think about what they're doing.

    Say someone like hoodoo has the strength of convictions to be a vegan and not use leather. That makes someone like me think about where my milk comes from, and the next time I'm at the grocery store, I buy organic milk and free-range eggs, and thus help move the "happy middle" a little farther in one direction.

    I dunno, but I think it's healthy to have convictions all along the spectrum.



  3. #43
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Suffolk, VA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

    Y'know who I worry about? The naive bunny-huggers who believe everything they read, who will be easily swayed by misleading portrayals of our sports (like the moronic "article" on the death of Bermuda's Gold at the Sydney Olympics that appeared on the HSUS website the day after she was put down, calling for the banning of eventing [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ). You convince enough uninformed suburban soccer moms that a sport is "cruel," and you suddenly start seeing useless legislation like the ban on horse slaughter.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Erin, You're right on here in my opinion. On the same line I remember when about 200 wild ponies on the Outer Banks of NC came up positive with EIA and were euthanized. The public outcry was amazing about how these ponies with "equine AIDS" were murdered! They totally missed the point that all the other ponies would have been infected and 1000's more would have died if those had not been destroyed. Of course, horse owners like me were sad but relieved that so many EIA carriers were removed from the horse population but Joe Average wanted to turn the infected ponies loose to live out their lives. It's the uniformed, well meaning every day people that are the threat, not the radicals who everyone recognizes and dismisses as radicals by their actions. It is Joe Average that we horse and pet owners should worry about not the nutcases.

    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence



  4. #44
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Suffolk, VA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB Stark:
    American's would be much healthier if they ate Less Meat.

    Read Diet for a new America by John Robbins.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Human beings evolved eating meat protein and the natural fats found in meat are not harmful like the "fake fats" created by people i.e. margarine. People are far better off eating meat than grains when it comes to health in general and our ability to utilize what we eat. If you don't believe me do a little research into low carb, high fat diets like Atkins and the Zone as well as the current eating and health trends in America i.e. obesity and diabetes.

    Having said that I don't like to think of how many animals die every year to feed people and I am opposed to factory farming. I try to buy organic meats as much as possible since I know those animals are raised in natural environments and have a better quality of life prior to being slaughtered. People who are concerned about the treatment of livestock and poultry should do likewise and the farmers will get the message. Use your dollars to make a point.

    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence



  5. #45
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    Jan. 21, 2000
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    Milford, CT
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    948

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
    Sorry, I don't buy it. Human beings evolved eating meat protein and the natural fats found in meat are not harmful like the "fake fats" created by people i.e. margarine. People are far better off eating meat than grains when it comes to health in general and our ability to utilize what we eat. If you don't believe me do a little research into low carb, high fat diets like Atkins and the Zone as well as the current eating and health trends in America i.e. obesity and diabetes.

    Having said that I don't like to think of how many animals die every year to feed people and I am opposed to factory farming. I try to buy organic meats as much as possible since I know those animals are raised in natural environments and have a better quality of life prior to being slaughtered. People who are concerned about the treatment of livestock and poultry should do likewise and the farmers will get the message. Use your dollars to make a point.

    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ok maybe it is me but I have read this post over and over again and I don't get what you are trying to say. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.



  6. #46
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    You took the words right out of my mouth!

    Not here to discuss diet. You eat as you believe and I'll eat as I believe.

    Erin, that is probably correct and a valid way to look at it. Just not the way I think! Makes more sense to me to try and fix a practice than ban it altogether. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


    Also, isn't it true that the term "organic" is not standardized and really doesn't guarantee a more healthful product, animal or vegetable? I can't get them in this town anyway, but it seems to me that I have read this somewhere. I think what I read was in relation to fruits and vegetables and that it said that organic did mean that the earth in which the product was grown was left healthier without any chemicals being used, and the fruit or vegetable was not chemically enhanced, but was not necessarily "better" than well-washed non-organic food. Just a question.

    Laurie
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  7. #47
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    Nov. 20, 2000
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    Wes Mincer
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    I will probably get in trouble for this, but I am going to say it anyway. My personal opinion is that this thread should be locked. I don't think it is horse related, it is political and I don't feel like it has any business on the bb.

    I loathe PETA, loathe the animal rights movement and nobody will ever convince me that anything it does is useful or helpful to animals.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
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    I'm wondering, Anne FS, in the 12 years you've been collecting this information, if you've seen a rising level of threat from the AR people. I'm not seeing it myself. There are no AR congresspeople, no AR state governors. Police departments have not prioritized animal abuse arrests over murders and other human-abuse mayhem. We've heard on threads in this very forum how difficult it is to get abusive farm operations shut down because local humane officers are understaffed and underfunded, and legal codes permit heinous levels of neglect and abuse before cases becomes actionable.

    I for one feel challenged in a good way by Peter Singer. Theorists like him make me think hard about my consumption choices. Life is certainly a little more expensive and less convenient when you have to pay more for cage-free eggs, free-range meat products, and organic whatnot. As an interim solution to my anti-sweatshop views I'm buying all my clothes from Goodwill to avoid directly patronizing the sweatshop operators. I guess that helps ameliorate my inflated food costs, though!

    I guess I feel better about my actions in the world by coming down on the side of kindness. Can't see how this is so evil. I dont see that my "right" to eat cheap Purdue chicken or my "right" to not have my ill-fitting saddle reflocked is relevant; what's more important is finding ways to live in the world that lessen human and animal suffering, not increase it. Questions about money and convenience are secondary in my book.



  9. #49
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    Aug. 30, 2001
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    Purcellville, VA
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    5,937

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hoodoo:
    I do, however believe that animals being tortured should be freed with whatever means possible, but I would do that for a human as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] whatever means possible??? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb. 27, 1999
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    Virginia and North Carolina, Parrothead Clique!
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    "I loathe PETA, loathe the animal rights movement and nobody will ever convince me that anything it does is useful or helpful to animals."

    MargaretF, we actually agree on something. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Does that make this an "extremely negative" post?



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jul. 7, 2001
    Posts
    539

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    "Goodwill to avoid directly patronizing the sweatshop operators"

    Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but how does buying clothes from Goodwill accomplish this? Once the clothes are made, isn't that pretty much it? I'm not trying to be "smart" but really didn't understand.



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
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    Ela, I didn't say it was a perfect solution--just an interim one!

    I know--somebody got hosed when they made the Gap shirt that I bought from Goodwill to turn into a fabulous show-shirt. But I reason that at least MY money is supporting Goodwill and not Gap.

    It's hard to find non-exploitative clothing manufacturers who don't make stuff that looks like canvas sacks. Making my own clothing would mean going to work in shapeless muu-muus. By not spending at the offending stores, I'm trying to help the anti-sweatshop effort by at least a degree or so.



  13. #53
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    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB Stark:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
    Sorry, I don't buy it. Human beings evolved eating meat protein and the natural fats found in meat are not harmful like the "fake fats" created by people i.e. margarine. People are far better off eating meat than grains when it comes to health in general and our ability to utilize what we eat. If you don't believe me do a little research into low carb, high fat diets like Atkins and the Zone as well as the current eating and health trends in America i.e. obesity and diabetes.

    Having said that I don't like to think of how many animals die every year to feed people and I am opposed to factory farming. I try to buy organic meats as much as possible since I know those animals are raised in natural environments and have a better quality of life prior to being slaughtered. People who are concerned about the treatment of livestock and poultry should do likewise and the farmers will get the message. Use your dollars to make a point.

    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ok maybe it is me but I have read this post over and over again and I don't get what you are trying to say. It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    MB,

    Maybe I wasn't clear but all I'm trying to say is that I disagree with your statement that American's eat too much meat. IMO, we eat too many carbohydrates of which grains (a mainstay of most Americans' diets) are full of carbs. High carb, low fat diets have recently been shown by researchers to contribute to obesity, high cholesterol and the Type II diabetes epidemic in the US. I believe that eating meat is healthy and natural and that you can still be an animal lover and eat meat. I'm not knocking anyone who's a vegitarian but I know it's not for me.

    If factory farming and the treatment of dairy and meat cows, poultry, and swine bothers you and you don't want to give up meat, then I suggest you support organic farmers and livestock raisers. For a large part, these animals are raised in "normal" environments versus closed barns and concrete stalls and have a better quality of life than animals from factory farms. That helps to ease my conscience when I eat meat to know that the animals I'm consuming for my sustenance at least lived their life in a more natural, pleasant manner than those coming from factory farms.

    Is that more clear? Sorry for the confusion!

    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2001
    Posts
    6,708

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    Hoodoo,
    I respect your choices in life and commend you and other such as yourself for the strength of your convictions, but NOT condem others, animal or human, to live the life YOU choose! Do you have a vet take care of your horses when they are ill? Hmmmm, how did they get their training? Do you use drugs such as Adequan or Legend? How do you think they were tested? Do you advocate euthanasia for your dog if it has cancer? What if your horse lymphangitis? Do you prefer to give it effective antibiotics (which are animal tested), let the horse suffer, or kill it?

    Yes, you may choose to boycott medical treatments (note: I DO NOT advocate cosmetics or consumer product testing on animals) that have been animal tested but by limiting animal research, you also limit the available treatments to your own animals. What if in my work we discover a way to reverse arthiritis in horses? I sure hope you choose not to use our efforts to help your animals.

    Here is a little factoid, a study showed that while 9 billion animals are killed each year for consumption, 300 animals (voles, mice, rabbits, birds, etc.) per acre are killed in harvesting grains, corn etc. So let's see; say there are only 100 million harvestable acres in the US (a gross underestimate). At 300 animals killed per acre, that means 30 billion animals are killed during harvest. A lot more than are killed directly for consumption.

    Reed



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Nov. 20, 2000
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    Wes Mincer
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    You know what, Anne - I am really not in the mood okay? Today is my birthday and I kinda don't really want to fight with people, ya know?



  16. #56
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    Jan. 21, 2000
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    Milford, CT
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    Margaret, Happy Birthday! If this thread bothers you why don't you stop reading it? I am in NO WAY saying this to start a fight and My tone is not confrontational. Just wondering why when People say that they want a thread closed and it bothers them they keep coming back to it??



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec. 29, 1999
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA USA
    Posts
    6,137

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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
    I'm wondering, Anne FS, in the 12 years you've been collecting this information, if you've seen a rising level of threat from the AR people. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's a good question, hobson, and yeah, I do see a rising level of threat.

    Examples:

    1. The arson fire at the Vail ski resort $12 million in damage).
    2. The fire last month at the US Forest Service lab in PA ($700,000 damage).
    3. The foxhunt incident in England where ARs came to the meet and with baseball bats smashed all the parked cars--can't wait until that happens at a horseshow.
    4. The Huntingdon Life Sciences issue, where AR groups threatened bodily harm to officers of banks and pension funds that invested in HLS unless the investments were withdrawn. Said investments were withdrawn.
    5. The stealing and disappearance of 46 beagles in Jan. 2001 from Wye Beagles in England. This one just breaks my heart. Only 1 was ever recovered (he escaped from the thieves). To think of these trusting beagles taken away from their home and their buddies.....AR groups claimed responsibility. Your dogs or your horses could be victims one day.
    5. The vitriolic anonymous letter I received in my mailbox at my home after posting on another list that I did not approve of this theft. This letter was nasty and threatening enough that I turned it into the police.

    These are not idle threats, or babblings. They are real, concrete examples of self-proclaimed animal rights advocates breaking the law for their cause and seriously hurting people and animals in the process. (Except for #5 - I was not hurt in any way, only threatened with hurt).

    In 1990 we had a lot of talk. We still have the talk, but we now have violence along with it. There are many more examples I could give.



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2000
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    Near the Itchetucknee.Ft.White Fl.
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    I truly love all my animals and will not be told by these morons what I can or can't do with them

    All of my animals are taken on as " for life " projects.

    This has not always been the case.Prior to coming to US.I made my living selling S/J eventers Foxhunters ect.

    I am no longer comfortable selling animals to "Joe Blow",he has plenty of money,and very little knowledge of how to care and be fair to them.That is just my opinion, and my right to no longer be involved in animal sales.

    I do agree that slaughtering of stock needs to be seriously dealt with,here and abroad,the conditions are disgusting.

    I do still eat meat,but a lot less than I used to,I don't think that is unusual,in talking with friends,we all thought that as one gets older one seems to eat less meat.

    As far as organic farming,It really is somewhat of a joke,go into your local healthfood store and look at the "fresh from happy chickens eggs". 9 times out of 10 they have the wire marks from the battery cages on them.

    In the UK.there is a popular,and VERY expensive marketing job being done with "happy farm animals", Every thing is free range and in some cases slaughtered at home,after a lovely life frolicing in the pastures.

    Well,I just reread this and I'm not sure it is saying how I really feel.

    I still feel a lot of the AR.organizations are Extremely dangerous ,and not what they claim to be.

    They will not be getting any of my money.

    I look after my own,I do try to help others when I can,But NOT via the aforementioned groups.

    fernie fox
    "I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".
    \"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound\".



  19. #59
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    Jun. 30, 2000
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    The Confederacy
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MargaretF:


    I loathe PETA, loathe the animal rights movement and nobody will ever convince me that anything it does is useful or helpful to animals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Amen girlfriend!

    Beef - it's what's for dinner!



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan. 24, 2002
    Location
    Upperville, VA
    Posts
    810

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    Happy Birthday!

    I am wondering about one thing, when they say animals should have the same rights that humans have, do they mean animals should have the same rights that WE BELIEVE humans SHOULD have? Human rights are violated all the time, some places in the world have very little (or no) human rights at all! And who decides what makes up a 'human right'? I think that people have different views of human rights... for example, I think it is a basic human right to have air conditioning (having grown up in the deep south where they packed us in school rooms when it was 115 degrees outside and even hotter inside), some humans would be happy if they had the right to go to school at all, hot or not.

    I believe humans should have a right to health care, but if my pony was living 'as she should live' she'd have to access to health care at all! Not all humans have access to medical care either! Further, there are no peppermints supplied to horses in the wild, and what would Flower DO without her mints??? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    I think animals should be spared from suffering, and believe me, after volunteering at a horse rescue since 1993, I have seen some suffering animals (Flower being one of the worst when she first came in!). But I don't think they should live the life they were 'meant' to live (in the wild) - a good portion of these animals were bred by man and ARE living the life they were meant too, and wouldn't last 10 minutes in the 'wild'. As for being ridden, Flower loves it (and BELIEVE me, she doesn't do anything she doesn't want to!). She is a Morgan and it is in her blood to work and she is bored, cranky and seems unfulfilled without it - just like a Jack Russell, she has to have a job!

    Flower is very happy as a civilized horse and wants nothing to do with her aboriginal brethren, thank you very much!

    ******************************
    ~Arkie clique~

    "Do, or do not, there is no try." -- Yoda



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