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  1. #241
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GO-dog-GO:
    Bwood, Animals _do_ have "rights"....Season legnth, bag limits and "fair chase" are a few that come to mind.*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You mean human animals? Right? Sometimes I'm slow...

    GDG, did you read what I wrote? I was saying that wild foxes that are hunted retain all their rights and that was why I am not against it. [Or maybe I just didn't get what you said.]

    That reasoning makes way more sense to me than some of the things the foxhunters say. But that's just me.
    The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde



  2. #242
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAyers:

    Anyway, my own methods to determine the comfort of my animals go beyond growth of the animal. It includes social interaction with other animals (thriving animals will maintain their social structure), activity, coat feel/color, and several other criteria. From my experiences both in industry and in academia, I believe this is becoming the norm in research.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    (My bolding) Your methods of assessing your animals are good, and you might well be doing that with or without the AWA. But enforcement of the AWA, and the type of animal assessment you're doing, have been a focus of AR/AW/Animal Advocacy/Animal Protection groups over the last 30 years or so, because too many researchers weren't doing those things. Although the biggest factor in reducing the numbers of animals used in research is just the cost of the animals...


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It includes social interaction with other animals (thriving animals will maintain their social structure) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So, back to those nasty mink that are cannabalizing each other... Is it fair to say that they aren't maintaining their social structure? Likewise for pigs or chickens in factory farming situations, where cannabalism can be a problem? (With pigs it's each others' tails.)

    I *do* eat meat, and I've worked in biomedical research, and I don't think you have to anthropomorphize to conclude that some confinement behaviors are abnormal and indicative of stress/suffering.



  3. #243
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    To further expand on Reed's explanations, I found this to be the case when I worked in a lab this summer. My PI (primary investigator) was responsible for observing our mice every day to make sure they were all ok. Also, an institutional ACUC is required to have a veterinarian as well as lay members of the community (nonscientists) to approve research protocols.



  4. #244
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    I'm a little sloooooooooow, I rode a "bus".

    I have to use pen raised birds when I train a hunting dog. They don't seem "unhappy" in the pen. In fact they seem to "like" to hang out in the dirtiest part of the pen, their choice. Would they be happier "free"? I think some birds seem to have personalities [sp?] but I don't see them being "happier" if they were free.

    Unlimited water and food, nothing trying to kill them everyday.......Yes, they die but so does everything.

    *Make SURE your right before you decide everyone else is wrong.*

    *Lord please save me from those trying to save me!*

    [This message was edited by GO-dog-GO on Sep. 20, 2002 at 09:09 PM.]



  5. #245
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    We raised chickens when I was a kid and even free ranging during the day and inside at night, they would cannibalize each other. Nasty animals chickens... Ours were not crowded either but they would pick one hen they did not like and peck her feathers out until she bled. If we didn't intervene, she would eventually get pecked to death. These were just your regular Rhode Island Reds too, nothing fancy.

    Interestingly, I had some Bantams as pets and they were much nicer birds and didn't get nasty with each other like the big chickens. Mine all had names and were tame...Have you ever seen a banty hen kick a tomcat's butt who was trying to steal a peep? It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen...a little chicken chasing a cat twice her size for two laps around the barn.

    Sorry, I'm digressing but it was really funny.

    "I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence



  6. #246
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GO-dog-GO:
    I'm a little sloooooooooow, I rode a "small bus".
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hey, GDG, I respectfully suggest that you please edit the above line out of your post.

    While you, I am sure, weren't intending to make a joke at the expense of those who DO ride the small bus, that sentence suggests such in my mind.

    It seems disrespectful to those who are mentally impaired or who are physically challenged, such that they NEED to ride the "small bus." I would hate to have somebody who does ride the small bus feel bad because of that line in your post. No?

    Thanks!! (I'll obviously delete this post if you decide to edit out your line, so that the line no longer exists anywhere.) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]



  7. #247
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    And people send money for this type of foolish publicity stunt? I think it just baits someone filing a nice lawsuit against PETA ...

    PETA revives anti-milk campaign, targets 'party schools'

    By DAN LEWERENZ
    Associated Press Writer

    September 19, 2002, 5:20 PM EDT

    STATE COLLEGE, Pa. -- Got controversy?

    People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals has revived its anti-milk "Got Beer?" campaign, with
    advertisements in four college newspapers Thursday urging students to abandon dairy in favor of the brewery.

    The quarter-page ad in Penn State University's The Daily Collegian features a silhouette of a beer bottle and reads: "Got ... beer?! Better than milk, find out more at MilkSucks.com."

    "College students care about cruelty to animals, and they need to know if they're consuming dairy products they're promoting animal abuse and harming their own health," said Bruce Friedrich, director of vegan outreach for the Norfolk, Va.-based organization.

    PETA first came up with the slogan _ a spoof of the popular "Got Milk?" campaign _ two years ago, but it was retired after being criticized by Mothers Against Drunk Driving and other groups.

    Lisa Ritchie, a registered dietitian and assistant professor of family and consumer sciences at Harding University in Searcy, Ark., said it was ridiculous to claim that drinking beer is healthier than drinking milk.

    "I think, really, it is a stretch to say that beer is going to be better, that you can't drink milk responsibly," Ritchie said. "Beer is an empty-calorie food where you get about 130 calories in a can. It's not a real nutrient-packed substance, where milk, in an eight-ounce serving, you get an awful lot of nutrients."

    In addition to The Daily Collegian, the ad ran in student papers at Indiana University in Bloomington, Ind.; the University of Colorado in Boulder; and Florida State University in Tallahassee.

    The campaign is targeted at the 10 schools identified by Princeton Review as the nation's top party schools. In addition to Penn State, Indiana, Colorado and Florida State, the list included Alabama, Buffalo, Clemson, Florida, New Hampshire and Wisconsin.

    PETA also planned to run the ad at the University of Pennsylvania and at five schools Princeton Review identified as "stone-cold sober": Brigham Young, Wheaton College and the Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard academies. The Daily Universe at Brigham Young and The Daily Pennsylvanian at Penn have refused to run the ad.

    "It has nothing to do with PETA, it has nothing to do with the fact that it refers to alcohol," said Matthew Mugmon, executive editor of The Daily Pennsylvanian. "It really was a wording issue, without getting into the specifics."

    Mothers Against Drunk Driving, too, renewed its criticism of the campaign. Wendy Hamilton, president of MADD, cited recent studies about binge drinking on campus and called the ad irresponsible.

    "It's absolutely ridiculous ... it's an irresponsible, recycled publicity stunt that literally puts cows before kids. It's appalling," she said.

    Friedrich said those who focus on the pro-beer aspect are missing the point. He said that in addition to dairy products being unhealthy, the dairy industry is cruel to cattle.

    "The animals are in chronic pain," Friedrich said. "They put the animals on a constant cycle of impregnation. A third of the animals are sent to slaughter every year because their bodies are worn out, and they're turned to hamburger. Their babies are taken away from them within a couple days of birth _ often within a couple hours of birth _ and you can hear these animals, the babies and the mothers, wailing in agony."

    Larry Hutchinson, a professor of veterinary science at Penn State, disputed that.

    "There is some transient anxiety, both for mother and for baby," Hutchinson said. "But provided the baby, in this case the calf, is fed an adequate diet and provided for as far as environment, that period of stress is rather short lived, a matter of hours."



  8. #248
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    At least it proves that PETA has a sense of humor (although maybe a bit skewed....)!

    (By the way, the characterization of the University of Colorado as a "party school" does NOT apply to the lawschool! (or at least didn't use to). Trust me, several of those wanna be lawyers would have been more interesting if they drank beer instead of milk!)

    Better yet, I want to know where's the People for the Ethical Treatment of Lawyers????
    If we manage, throughout our training to preserve both the gentleness and the gaiety of our horse we shall not, in the end, go very far amiss--Wynmalan



  9. #249
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    ...from "People for the Ethical Treatment of Clients" [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

    I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it left!
    www.geocities.com/winglet18
    Driven insane in the carpool lane...



  10. #250
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    HAH! Got me on that one, Winglet!
    If we manage, throughout our training to preserve both the gentleness and the gaiety of our horse we shall not, in the end, go very far amiss--Wynmalan



  11. #251
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    Aww lawgrl, it wasn't just the lawschool. I did my graduate work there and while the grad students in the engineering department drank heavily, it didn't improve our personalities. :-)

    What about, PETE, People for the Ethical Treatment of Enginerds?

    Reed



  12. #252
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    What does PETA stand for? People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

    What does ethical (and ethics) mean?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    eth.i.cal
    Pronunciation: 'e-thi-k&l
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English etik, from Latin ethicus, from Greek Ethikos, from Ethos character -- more at SIB
    Date: 1607
    Variant(s): also eth.ic /-thik/
    1 : of or relating to ethics
    2 : involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval
    3 : conforming to accepted professional standards of conduct


    ethic
    Pronunciation: 'e-thik
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos
    Date: 14th century
    1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
    2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group d : a guiding philosophy
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Think about it...since when does "ethics" mean "worship?" PETA is just an organization using guerilla tactics to impose a worship of animals at this time. If they actually followed a reasonable course of action, they would probably get things done--rather than just getting attention (negative more often than positive).

    They are at the extreme fringe. They tell us to set all animals free and to let them live amongst themselves and that we are not to interfere. Okay, so where would my horse live in this world that we've created? Should I let a grizzly bear eat my child and just say that it was okay?

    This organization just doesn't even deserve a glance or thought. Find someone who IS worth it. CANTER is a great one for the horse world, and some of the other groups promoting more traditional animal husbandry techniques are another.

    JMHO

    (Sorry I didn't get through all of the replies. I just saw one and went off on a tangent. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] )

    It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

    [This message was edited by Velvet on Sep. 20, 2002 at 07:21 PM.]
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  13. #253
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    Elizabeth, Man, I really don't know what to do here. My "small bus" comment has bothered someone and for that I'm sorry but I don't know if I can be that PC. It's getting so "someone" takes offense at almost everything you could say these days. If I said a "blind man" could someone find it insulting blind people? If someone refers to tall people as "big geeks", am I supposed to take offense? What about the comment "are you deaf?"?

    I sorry again if my "small bus" comment bothered some people but if we get to the point that everything that bothers someone on the BB need to be deleted they might as well close the BB.

    A lot of this thread is un-PC, my god [whoops, did I just offend religious people?] were talking about killing animals. That's certainly not PC in many places these days.

    I sorry for the third time and I'll change my post for you in a while?

    *Make SURE your right before you decide everyone else is wrong.*

    *Lord please save me from those trying to save me!*

    [This message was edited by GO-dog-GO on Sep. 20, 2002 at 09:13 PM.]



  14. #254
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    Change your signature, GDG! I want to save you! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  15. #255
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    I have tried to read through the entire thirteen pages of this thread and to be honest it just hurts my blonde little head. But can someone please tell me what the purpose in life is for that poor little beagle in the picture Hoodoo posted? That made me sick to my stomach.

    *Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*



  16. #256
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    I have a friend who works in a research lab here in RTP and she tells me that even lab rats have "enrichment" activities now and
    toys just like zoo animals. It made me feel better to hear that.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    One of the "small child neurology/baby development" books that I read talked about some of the revolutions in scientific studies, and one point was that lab rats in just a cage with no wheel, no toys, was an environment that led to stunted brain growth, and that what they called an "enriched" environment is actually normal for a rat. "Enriched" rats, which had lots of things to interact with and problems to solve, like wild rats, have much bigger brains that rats just sitting in a cage. (IIRC, this was in "Magic Trees of the Mind," which was fascinating, particularly if, like me, you currently have your own living, breathing experiment [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] .)

    Interestingly, I wonder how much credit for better treatment of lab animals is due to PETA et al and how much is due to the influx of women into science - women who are much more likely to have had pet animals and to empathize with them than the previous generation of scientists, who were mostly male and grew up in the shadow of WWII and the cold war. Remember, this was an era where - never mind the rats - Americans routinely sacrificed their beloved young men aged 18-25 on the battlefield. Now we (Americans) have the technology and wealth that gives us luxury of valuing lives, both animal and human, at a much higher level than even 30 years ago. It is right that we do this, and I am glad that we can.

    There is no doubt that the influx of women has helped to revolutionize how we understand human babies - back in the sixties, they didn't think that newborns could see or feel pain, and treated them with those assumptions. Neurotic mothers who claimed otherwise were dismissed, as was appropriate. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    It was not until a few years ago that it became common practice to anethesize a baby for circumcision!

    So maybe this is just the natural progression of a maturing society?

    [This message was edited by poltroon on Sep. 23, 2002 at 06:25 PM.]
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  17. #257
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    I think the diet issue is probably a little OT, but this has been puzzling me.

    I have a friend whose daughter has Crohns and other family members with digestive disorders and they have never indicated that a vegetarian diet is life threatening for them, or that massive amounts of meat are needed for their health. So I am confused about those statements.

    From the National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While no special diet for ulcerative colitis is given, patients may be able to control mild symptoms simply by avoiding foods that seem to upset their intestine. In some cases, the doctor may advise avoiding highly seasoned foods or milk sugar (lactose) for a while. When treatment is necessary, it must be tailored for each case, since what may help one patient may not help another. The patient also should be given needed emotional and psychological support.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So is there a special - vegetable avoidance or meat emphasizing diet? This is something I would pass on to my friend if you have further info.



  18. #258
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    Also way off off topic ... but there is a HUGE difference between Ulcerative Colitis and Crohns Disease - in physiologic effects, and recommended treatments and diets. (wife of long time Crohns patient here)
    Mal:This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then .... explode



  19. #259
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    Okay, I read all 14 pages. Whew.

    I think the point being missed here, is with the millions and millions of dollars being raised in the name of animal rights/welfare, how much has changed in the conditions and numbers of dogs and cats, bunnies (evil or otherwise), etc at shelters acrosss the US?

    Where is all the MONEY GOING?! How many kitties and puppies and non-mafia bunnies are being saved or helped? Jez, I understand that people want to go after the big issues, but fat lot of good it does to raise millions of dollars based on the "spay and neuter" concept and then not pay to spay or neuter one frickin cat. <grrr>

    Here's a quote I think everyone ought to read and think about before donating to PETA or to the HSUS;

    For the amount of money raised and spent by U.S. animal rights groups every cat and dog in America ought to have its own condominium. Why then, do
    more than 15 million pets a year end up in underfunded local humane shelters with overworked staff who are frustrated that they cannot even
    adequately feed and care for them? And why are 11 million of these animals-three out of every four cats and two out of every three dogs- destroyed for lack of a home?

    Way back pages ago, someone asked what was so bad about the Humane Society of US (HSUS). I think the biggest problem most people have with the HSUS is that it annually raises so much money, most web articles talk about 50 million, but the year 2000 return is over 100 million, YET it does not run ONE shelter in the US. (BTW, Peta does now run a shelter in Norfolk, it's operating budget is something like $6100 a year and they pull in MILLIONS). In addition, in 1995 & 1996 severe finanicial irregularities (like some money laundering & fraud problems), and the HUGE salaries (perks/loans/homes/cars, etc included in the term "salaries") brought major attention to the HSUS money matters. You think you're giving money to help spay and neuter cats and dogs and you're actually helping to pay for one of the 5 homes the HSUS president has.

    I think my main point here would be that if you want to help the stop the killing of kitties, puppies, and bunnies you need to put your money in places where they are REALLY working at the live/die level. I don't care if you want to call yourself an Animal Rights person, a Animal Welfare advocate, whatever, but ask yourself before you send money off to these big organizations WHAT you are really paying for. Are you REALLY helping the down in the trenches, live or die hard luck dog? Mostly NOT.

    I'm personally a big believer in your local, small time, really get results kind groups myself. I don't want to help some guy pay for his BMW SUV, I want to make sure animals are treated humanely and their well being and welfare is upmost in our use of them. So I give to local, in the trenches, never have enough money, staff, funding to do anything kinda programs. Organizations with 16 million dollar fund raising budgets (HSUS) make me want to puke. Someone mentioned that Ingrid made 25,000K. I guess she needs to work for HSUS, whose CEO and President make about 8 times that PLUS 2x that in salary supplements, HSUS buys them 300K homes, etc.

    Another quote to think about,
    (Why does the AR movement)..."attack the biomedical community for working with fewer than 150,000 dogs and cats, which live in comfortable
    surroundings and receive the best medical care, and yet do nothing for the 11 million hungry, sick animals are destroyed in animal shelters
    each year?

    I care very deeply for the humane care and treatment of animals. I also get WAY pissed off by misleading fund raising propoganda. And that, I think, is what Anne was trying to bring to everyone's attention.

    Helen

    In riding a horse we borrow freedom.
    ~Helen Thomson
    (S)He doth nothing but talk of his horses.
    ~William Shakespeare



  20. #260
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chimaera:
    Whoever said Ingrid Newkirk only makes $25,000.00/yr left off two zeros. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    _<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is a crock. She probably makes a little more than that but NOT MUCH. What is your source for this info????????



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