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  1. #41
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    If one problem is that some people have a pro compete their horse first before they try, and others can't afford this, why not level the playing field by only allowing one rider to compete a horse at a show, or even ride the horse (including schooling)?

    The more able riders, whether wealthy or not, would at least then be showing their own endeavours. Those people who have a nice horse but it's too hot to show without a pro getting on first would need to go for a more manageable mount instead or appreciate that they will have to wait until the horse is better schooled or they can cope with it by themselves.



  2. #42
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chaser:
    If one problem is that some people have a pro compete their horse first before they try, and others can't afford this, why not level the playing field by only allowing one rider to compete a horse at a show, or even ride the horse (including schooling)?

    The more able riders, whether wealthy or not, would at least then be showing their own endeavours. Those people who have a nice horse but it's too hot to show without a pro getting on first would need to go for a more manageable mount instead or appreciate that they will have to wait until the horse is better schooled or they can cope with it by themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly what I loved about eventing. Even though the trainer could ride the horse every day up until 3:00 on the day before the horse trials began the rider has to ride the horse to compete. And, you're crazy if you don't ride your own horse before a competition - it's just too hard for most mortals (some of the pros can do it) to get on a horse you haven't ridden much and do an event. Not to mention dangerous.

    This summer I was at an A-show that had a high-low division. It was a 3'3" division that was essentially the warm up (presumably for the pros to ride) for the A/O division. I was thrilled to be able to show bigger than 3' without breaking my horse's first year green. I figured this was the opportunity for all those capable A/A riders who ride but don't own capable horses to ride a bigger jump since they can't do the A/O's. There were 4 horses in the classes. The 3 A/O's (riding their own horses) and me.

    It's hard to think that there's alot of demand for it. There's barely the ability to fill the A/O's at the smaller A's. But, you never know 'til you try. Someone mentioned a junior/adult hunter division at 3'3" in some parts of the country. Do they fill?

    I personally feel that the A/O division should be split into A/O's and "high A/A"'s. Not sure why the split - why not just adult 3'6" whether you own or not. It seems highly antiquated to require adults to own horses. However, I do think they should remain amateur - even tho we can't quite make that inclusive.

    I've always wondered how amatuer owner horses can be owned by corporations....



  3. #43
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    Apr. 23, 1999
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    quite a few of the (local)rated shows I've been to this past year, the A/A's haven't even filled, never mind any of the 3'6" divisions.....


    ....I personally think that the amateur rule needs to be revised and pro v.s. ammy should be defined more along the lines of prize money won and/or if one makes a living riding/teaching/training.....

    JMHO



  4. #44
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Wonder why the A/Os only have 4 - 6 entries at small shows? The A/As never have less than 10. What if the A/As were forced to ride their horses themselves, and actually learned how to correct problems and work through difficult situations, instead of having the trainer fix the problems. Maybe they would be doing the A/Os too <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I totally disagree with your assessment.

    Just as many (more?) A/Os have trainers school on their horses as the A/As - maybe more since most of the A/O horses have done the "pro" divisions at 3'6" and maybe 3'9"...most of them with trainers riding. How many Amateurs do you know that ride in the second year green division?

    Maybe not every one of the A/As can afford a horse that can be competitive at 3'6". Maybe they work and can only ride a few days a week, and therefore don't feel comfortable showing at 3'6". Maybe they just like the camaraderie of the Adult divisions, and feel like it is less wear and tear on them and their horses...not to mention less chance of a fall/injury for those who have other obligations, like taking care of their kids or whatever.

    Not everyone has aspirations of showing in the Amateur divisions, and that does not automatically mean that they are not capable riders who can ride through problems or improve their horses themselves. I know plenty of A/As who have made up their own horses with limited coaching, and frankly it isn't lack of skill that keeps them from the A/O division.

    **********
    To appreciate heaven well
    'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
    Will Carleton (1845-1912)
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  5. #45
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    So how many A/As out there really want to move up??? 3.3ft even 3.6ft. There could be a reason for this is that they might not fill! Also it's just another divison you have to add to an already long show schedule! Your never going to make everyone happy, but if you going and change things you might make more people unhappy! It's a catch 22 situation. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
    I want to be like Barbie because that bitch has everything!



  6. #46
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:


    Wonder why the A/Os only have 4 - 6 entries at small shows? The A/As never have less than 10. What if the A/As were forced to ride their horses themselves, and actually learned how to correct problems and work through difficult situations, instead of having the trainer fix the problems. Maybe they would be doing the A/Os too.

    Use the Force.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I absolutely resent that statement Flash. Have you ever considered these points? First of all, not everyone in the A/As is there because they cannot jump 3'6''. For example, I did the junior jumpers when I was a kid. When I became an adult, I bought a pre-green horse. I couldnt show him in the 3'6'' because I would have broken his green. Second of all, not everyone that has a pro ride their horse has them do it so that they can be "trained" for them since they cant ride. There is still a small percentage of people in this world who support pros and put their horses in those pro classes because they want them to WIN. I never needed anyone to set MY horse up for me. and Third of all, and most importantly, not everyone wants to do the 3'6''. Just because someone does the 3ft doesnt mean they're green or they cant ride. Its called FEAR FACTOR. 3'6'' fences are huge to some people and I know plenty of people that have no desire to show higher than 3ft. There is NOTHING wrong with that. Those people (whether we like it or not) are the backbone of our sport, they pay the bills and support their trainers.

    So in conclusion, dont make rash generalizations like that. Especially if you say you dont even do A shows.

    -----------------------------
    I cant take it anymore - its
    back to the old name for me.
    -----------------------------
    Teneriffe Enterprises- NW Indiana
    www.saradanielhaynes.com



  7. #47
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    it seems I overlooked the fact that I just said exactly what Lucassb said. Oops! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    -----------------------------
    I cant take it anymore - its
    back to the old name for me.
    -----------------------------
    Teneriffe Enterprises- NW Indiana
    www.saradanielhaynes.com



  8. #48
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    Awww, RF... at least I know I'm not the only one who thinks that way! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

    **********
    To appreciate heaven well
    'Tis good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell.
    Will Carleton (1845-1912)
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  9. #49
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    I have many friends in the A/A's who have no desire to do any more than 3' for the above mentioned reasons. I also have (gasp) had one of my trainers get on my horse before a big class, such as at Washington. I was feeling a little nervous before the first class, and my horse, who had never been indoors either, was picking up on that. He's still a little green, so rather than make things worse, someone got on him and jumped a few jumps. I relaxed, he relaxed, and we went around great after that. It doesn't happen very often, but I have spent too much money and stressed too much to risk making the problem worse - my horse shouldn't suffer the consequences of my sometimes neurotic behavior - this is less than 2 years after my big move out of the A/A's after all!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]



  10. #50
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    are odious at best. Making broad pronouncements about a division, especially by those who do not show in it is a real mistake and leads to tons of misinformation and mistaken ideas about who wins.
    My job takes me out of town at least 3 days a week. If my horse is at a show there is nobody to ride it except a pro.
    Bottom line is, after 35 years showing horses, many self trained in western divisions to state, regional and national honors, I turn my show hunter over to a pro for one reason....They ride better over fences then I do. My horse deserves that kind of a ride.
    Do I win? NO, still screwing up. Who beats me? Those who do not screw it up.
    Amateur rules should stay as is. Possibly let the 3'6" open to a lease horse.

    From Allergy Valley USA
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #51
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JBO:
    It doesn't happen very often, but I have spent too much money and stressed too much to risk making the problem worse - my horse shouldn't suffer the consequences of my sometimes neurotic behavior - this is less than 2 years after my big move out of the A/A's after all!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Here here! Exactly. I've said too many times on this board, if people are doing things within the rules and they have the money and the means to do it, then good for them! Like JBO said earlier, its just that much more rewarding when you finally beat them!

    When you're spending the kind of money it costs to show and campaign AND be competitive @ A shows, when you're having a bad day, although usually you'd be able to fix it or otherwise not be having the problem in the first place.. there is NOTHING wrong with having someone else get on your horse and make things easier.

    If you want to win, thats what you do. Or even if you dont do it yourself, you understand that that is what other people do. If you cant accept that thats the way it is, then the A shows are not the place for you. Coming to a board like this and preaching about how A show people do it wrong when QUITE a few people here show at the top level of AHSA shows is going to do you no good.

    Of course we're here to hear your opinions, and you are free to express them... but A shows are the way they are, they've been like that for years, and they arent going to change anytime soon if you want to know what I think. The main reason for that is that although there are people that are unhappy with the way things are, most people agree that it could be much, much worse.

    (and this is just a general statement by the way-not directed at one person)

    -----------------------------
    I cant take it anymore - its
    back to the old name for me.
    -----------------------------
    Teneriffe Enterprises- NW Indiana
    www.saradanielhaynes.com



  12. #52
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    Agree again RF! I'm in the same boat as the other poster at times too.....I'm at work during the week, so if my horse has to be there earlier than I can be, the pro rides them until I'm there. Also, if all the ammies could work out all the problems all the time, why wouldn't we just become pros and make money rather than spending it? Someone has to keep our pros busy [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]



  13. #53
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JBO:
    Someone has to keep our pros busy [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It's like we support a little cottage industry [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Gosh, I feel so American, helping out the economy and all! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    Chaser, I don't think anyone would really have a problem with your eventing scenario, but for the fact that it is comparing apples to oranges. As many have pointed out, at h/j shows, there are occassions when pro/ammy classes go the same day...
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  14. #54
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    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    Once again people have to take one statement in a paragraph and take it completely out of contect.

    I'm not against the 3' division, I am against the riders who show after show after show have the trainer get on the horse in the division before the amateur division and give it pro rides. If the horse is that bad, or the rider is that scared, they should drop down a division and learn how to deal with it. It's like having your parents do your homework.

    You learn more when your horse does not cooperate than when he does. Riding is easy when the horse does everything he is supposed to do. It's hard when he is spooky or fresh and you have to settle him down. What would happen if the trainers just told their students, I'm not getting on your horse. You'll have to learn how to deal with it yourself. I guess the trainers would go broke (now wouldn't THAT be the end of horse showing as we know it), and the riders would see where their weaknesses are and hopefully learn how to fix the problems.

    And I'm not in favor of not allowing trainers to ride clients' horses at shows. Some horses do the pro divisions, some clients can't get to the show until the day of their classes.

    Although I don't do the 3'6 now, I used to do pony jumpers about 20 years ago when larges jumped 4'.

    Use the Force.



  15. #55
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    come to think of it, at A shows, 99% of the time pros dont get the chance to ride in the division before the Adults (or AOs)

    Reason being... the professional divisions go during the week and the amateurs go on the weekend.

    And like I said, many people, myself included, put their horses in the professional divisions to win. When your horse is a winning professional horse during the week, sometimes it gives you that little extra edge on the weekend. I was not scared, nor was my horse bad.

    Yes of course you learn when the horse is bad. BUT, the point in showing and the way you win national titles is to learn those lessons at HOME and in the SCHOOLING RING and make things as perfect as possible when you're in the ring.

    If you have never chased points for indoors or a circuit title, you wont understand. Locally its different. But when the shows are really tough and you are paying a couple thou a show to do this, you dont want to waste your money buy "learning to handle your horse" in the ring. Of course its vital to learn to ride your horse- but for $60 a class at some shows, in the ring is not the place.

    You learn by WATCHING your trainer ride your horse in the pros, taking lessons the night before, schooling in the ring, and schooling at home. When you get to the show you make the best of what you have. You go to schooling shows to make mistakes in the ring. If you're chasing points, you go in the ring to win. If that means your trainer needs to take your horse around first, then so be it. If you have the money to do it, then go ahead.

    People are going to do what it takes to win. Such is life.

    [This message was edited by RumoursFollow on Nov. 27, 2001 at 11:48 PM.]
    Teneriffe Enterprises- NW Indiana
    www.saradanielhaynes.com



  16. #56
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    Apr. 23, 2000
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    Flash, REALLLLLLY you must not show much or far away from home.

    When my barn goes to AZ or CO juniors and Ammys typically FLY into the show so they don't miss a week of school/work. Alot of them also are not the best riders. When they spend 2k to go to a one week show they want to win, not go there and be like OOPS GOOD LEARNING EXPERIENCE.

    Is it illegal that my trainer schooled my pony and hacked it when I didn't get to the show till thursday NIGHT and my pony got there TUESDAY. Of course it would be much better for my pony to sit in the stall till thursday, duh silly me.

    ~Jess~
    Catchride.com
    Jess



  17. #57
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    Nov. 9, 2001
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    I agree with Amy *RF*... Flash really its none of you're business about how trainers ride their clients horses for them or not. People want their horses name out , and to win. So thats why they show them in the first years ,second years, or green workings. I personally also think, that the trainer is also TRAINING those horses. Hence, thats why they are TRAINERS. I honestly think horses that are in the first and second years are out there to learn their job w/ a professional. I had my horse do the first and second year hunters, then I would do the childrens on him. What the heck is the big deal? You shouldnt really assume that they dont know how to ride either.. just because the trainer is riding their horse. Its really none of you're business.Thats just my long opinion [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    ~Ashley
    ~Ashley



  18. #58
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    I think when a pro shows your horse, and does it well, prior to your own class, it often opens you up to greater scrutiny and criticism.

    Really, at the end of the day, had you watched a horse win a class under a pro and then pull rails with its ammie owner, aren't you going to stand there and muse, "egads, what a crappy rider"?

    I don't actually see any correlation between a pro showing a horse and any 'unfair' benefits afforded the ammie 2 or 3 days later when they climb aboard for a class. It's still the ammie who has to find the distance and give the horse a decent ride.

    That said, A May, I do believe that this is an open BB where discussion is encouraged - don't dismiss others for stating their opinion. It's rude.



  19. #59
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    I said my opinion, if you didnt like it then fine. Whatever floats you're boat. I wasnt intending to be rude. I just stated what i thought.

    ~Ashley
    ~Ashley



  20. #60
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    To comment on saying that i implied to not stating an opinion is wrong. Reread my post, is there anywhere where I said you shouldn't state an opinion? No, i just said it really isn't anyone
    s business if a trainer rides a clients horse for them.

    ~Ashley
    ~Ashley



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