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  1. #1
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    Very interesting article on how many different types of amateurs there really are in our sport. What is fair? How can we all compete on this level but vary so much in how we keep out amateur status? What about the weekend riders that show up at horse shows after their horses have been schooled all week by their trainers? What about the amateurs married to professionals? What about the amateurs that work full time at barns to pay for their shows? And lastly, what about the amateurs that work 40+ hours a week, own and train their own horses, and scrape by enough to show once in awhile?

    Is this fair for everyone?

    ~Courtney~
    Visit my farm at www.hiddenrockfarm.com



  2. #2
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    Very interesting article on how many different types of amateurs there really are in our sport. What is fair? How can we all compete on this level but vary so much in how we keep out amateur status? What about the weekend riders that show up at horse shows after their horses have been schooled all week by their trainers? What about the amateurs married to professionals? What about the amateurs that work full time at barns to pay for their shows? And lastly, what about the amateurs that work 40+ hours a week, own and train their own horses, and scrape by enough to show once in awhile?

    Is this fair for everyone?

    ~Courtney~
    Visit my farm at www.hiddenrockfarm.com



  3. #3
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    Can you be a pro in another equesrian sport, but show ammy in h/j? Say, a professional reiner, there would be no reason why he (she) couldnt show ammy in h/j right? What about a pro dressage or eventer? since they are closer to h/j than reining? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

    Dont ask why I wondered that [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    *Cass*

    <~><*><~>

    Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

    Life is not a spectator sport!

    Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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  4. #4
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    There is really no way to classify and further split up the amateur division. It would be unfair, it would make the division smaller, and it would just be a giant pain in the arse. Nothing in showing can be fair according to everyone's standards. No matter what, someone is going to pitch a fit about something, whether that person be a part of the majority or the minority.

    I found the article very interesting - it was great to hear the perspective of so many different people in so many different positions. And I'm sure there are many people out there who have similar situations, and there are more out there with different situations. But how on earth can we separate them further? I think it will never work.

    -Jackie-
    "If you love something, let it go. It it comes back, its yours, if not, you'll never know."
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  5. #5
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    If you are a pro reiner, you are a pro RIDER. It isn't resticted to one aspect of the sport.

    Betsy
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  6. #6
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    1) Capable amateurs who aspire to 3'6" and above but aren't able to own their own horses, and 2) "low" level pros who, for instance, teach beginners.

    Neither group is provided with a comfortable competitive niche under the present rules...Both these amateurs and "nominal" pros might be able to find rides more easily available to them if a division existed that could include them both. Not to mention, if such a division existed, it would go a long way toward helping rectify the problem of "shamateurism" which is most often is not motivated by a desire to simply cheat, but because life in limbo can be quite dreary.

    Low/special/everlasting pregreen hunter classes have limited appeal for those who aspire to more than low jumps and outside/inside/inside/outside type courses...yet it's difficult to set goals or aspire to anything if you have no avenue to get there...? A common overriding limitation on both these groups is often one of economics. Certainly a brain teaser, but apparently one that doesn't interest the "powers that be."

    [This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Nov. 25, 2001 at 11:26 AM.]



  7. #7
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    You know, I think no matter HOW they might split up the division, there will always be someone saying "it's not fair!"

    As Danielle said, maybe more policing of the existing rules should take place first!
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  8. #8
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    I am with DMK, not everyone is going to be happy no matter how they split it.
    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]



  9. #9
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    You are going to reach 5000 about the same time I reach 4000!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]



  10. #10
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    It depends... Are you going to respond to this post? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  11. #11
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    Well I am just starting off as an Am again. After being gone for 25 plus years.
    I of course don't want to compete against people who make their living riding horses.
    Although back in my day, we still showed in Green etc.. against the Pros.

    Working with racehorses, and riding out young horses etc... showed me that I prob rode better than most Am who were like I am now.
    Riding three times a week in a lesson just does not give me the balance etc... I had when I rode lots of horses everyday.

    So I would like to see the shows keep a good handle on Shamateurs [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]



  12. #12
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    This is obviously going to come as a shock to some of you but...not everyone gets to win!

    It is a competition! If you want to win, drop down in circuits until you get to the point where you are winning. Ah, you want to win at the A shows, therefore we should have 'I work for a living so I don't have as much saddle time' divisions or 'I'm good enough to teach and/or train a little but not good enough to go up against the 'real' pros so I want a place to win' divisions or 'I'm not lucky enough to be rich or have rich parents/spouse so I can't spend as much on my horse' division. Get over it! Either work harder and make it happen (think Lance Armstrong)or accept the fact that you do not have the time/money/talent to win at the A shows and get your joy from horse showing at a different level.

    Just because you want something doesn't mean you get to have it.

    'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.



  13. #13
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    No, it's not about winning. Many "capable" amateurs on a budget and "nominal" pros who would like to move up are mature enough to have quite realistic goals. At the moment, I'm bringing along a green horse, and it's been a good 10 years since my last forray into the show ring. If all goes well, when I finish introducing him to the low hunter inside/outside stuff, I will be really stuck to find something to show him in, at a venue with good footing and nice courses, other than slightly higher outside/inside stuff UNLESS I bring him to the A circuit where we'll be able to do training/schooling jumpers...that would be a defininite budget buster! No, it isn't winning: I think this issue is more about "inclusion." Why is it that everyone else seems to be included, but the two groups I identified above don't rate consideration for inclusion? Probably, economics...no clout, plain and simple. Oh well.



  14. #14
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    As a "low level pro" who teaches beginners, I'd probably just show in the ammies - and still get my butt kicked [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] . I'm definitley still an amateur rider, but I happen to be pretty good at teaching an 8 year old to post.
    I think the ability to teach beginner riders is less about your own personal ability to ride and more about communication skills. I'm not sure where that line changes though.
    I'd say I'm an amateur rider and a professional instructor ~ but I could definitley see that being abused... I like eventing - they have (in general) 3 sections per division - horse, rider, and open - all 3 do the same thing, but don't get judged against each other.

    The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
    The witchy witch witch of south central NC.



  15. #15
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    M. O'Connor, the open divisions are just that...open to everyone. Everyone is included.

    I think inclusion is something that belongs in places like public schools, not in an open sport in which one chooses to compete. There are divisions limited by age, professional status, the size of horse/pony you ride, the level of training of the horse you ride, as well as an individual assortment of miscellaneous divisions which vary from show to show.

    If you can't find a division, it's because there is no demand for it. A 3'6" division for pros who don't ride? I'm not sure I see the point nor do I see it filling on a regular basis. A 3'6" division for ammys who don't own? Boy, if you think there is a shamateur problem now...! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.



  16. #16
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    Midge, I don't personally see why it is okay to allow juniors to ride any 3'6" horse that comes along, but not amateurs.

    Here's my proposal: [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
    1. Make all adult eq classes OPEN. Yes, open. If George Morris and Conrad Homfield choose, they could show in the 3'6" adult eq. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] I personally think that serious professionals, who would not be paid to ride in a class for the RIDER, and who would not want to be beaten in horsemanship class, [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] would skip it and just the borderline pros would have a place to ride.

    2. Allow the 3'6" adult hunters to include leased horses.

    3. Keep and enforce the rule as it's currently written. It is not always fair but it is mercilessly clear. I think it would be easier to enforce if the borderline folk could ride in eq classes without having to suffer regular amnesia about their professional activities.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  17. #17
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    Maybe somebody has already said this but I think that at the bigger shows there could be an amateur split. Those who have won zone or national championships or reserves could go in an Open section and those who have not could go in a Restricted section.



  18. #18
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    I'm with Midge here........... and I am a full- time-working A/O rider. Sure, it would be great to not have to compete against those who ride all day every day, have multiple horses, etc, but I choose to show at the shows I do. It just makes jogging in front of them when you have a good day that much more gratifying. Life isn't always fair, so there's no point whining about it!



  19. #19
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    ...I don't see any reason to be rude about the suggestions that have been made or to dismiss the problems faced by others with a "that's just tooooo bad honey quitcherwhininig and git over it" sort of attitude. Whatever satisfaction you get out of showing certainly wouldn't be diminished by making things more fair for others who have gotten the short end of the stick for quite some time.

    Yes, the Legacy Cup organizers may be onto something after all, with both the amateur modifications and the division for "limited" pros. (But what do they know, anyway?)



  20. #20
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    JustJump, I guess I could compare it to a track meet. Say my best 'thing' would be the 84 yard dash. Well, they don't HAVE an 84 yard dash so, should they make one so I can perform at my best?

    'If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?'
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.



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