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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb. 19, 2011
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    Portland, OR
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    836

    Default Whats the deal hair analysis? (Dr. Depaolo) Or what about saliva analysis?

    I saw this on Dr Depaolo's website: For $185 you can get your horses hair analyzed. http://www.depaoloequineconcepts.com..._analysis.aspx
    Uckele also offers hair analysis for $149.95 http://www.uckeleequine.com/page/equ...eral-analysis/


    Always only done through vet, vet sends to lab? Wait, then there is also saliva testing. This does not appear to be done through a vet, but through various individuals. I think the saliva testing can detect injuries and hoof imbalances. Really?


    Does anyone have experience with either, wondering who has done this, what lead you to wanting to analyze the hair or saliva, what were the results, how did you treat, and what was the final outcome?
    Thanks
    Last edited by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider; Jun. 5, 2012 at 08:39 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2000
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    MA
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    12,661

    Default

    Save your money.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  3. #3
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    Feb. 19, 2011
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    Portland, OR
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    Default

    I was just reading on another forum about it and that seems to be the consensus.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Default

    SALIVA analysis? What on earth can be gleaned from saliva? Do you mean DNA testing of some sort via harvesting epithelial cells from the cheek? Or does someone out there actually analyze saliva and make diagnoses thereby?

    Sounds even more bogus than hair analyis, to be honest.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01Quackery...sts/tests.html
    Click here before you buy.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2009
    Location
    Port Angeles, WA
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    38

    Default

    The quackwatch boys are just about done.
    look up quackpotwatch.com
    Stephen Barrett is an idiot
    Jerry



  6. #6
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Default

    Don't care for quackwatch? Fine. Try looking for actual evidence of efficacy and reproducibility of these tests on PubMed or Google Scholar. We'll wait. But we shall not hold our breaths.

    Not evidence, but a synthesis, admittedlly somewhat biased as the title of the
    blog should indicate.

    Is there "stuff" in saliva? Undoubtedly yes. Is it potentially useful as a diagnostic specimen? Possibly. Is there work being done in this direction? Some. Ready for mass-market and prime time? No, not at all. That is the thing with SO many treatments, tests, and remedies that are sold . . . skipping that whole, messy part in the middle between "hypothesis" and "profit taking".
    Click here before you buy.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 9, 2010
    Location
    Milton, FL
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    517

    Default

    Hair analysis? Saliva/epithelial cell analysis? My guess the reasoning is one of two things:
    1- Toxins/remedies- How about a full blood panel? Nothing there? Good. Nothing to treat. Keep the results to compare to when something really is going wrong.
    2- DNA- Unless you NEED to prove a heritage (that BWB fiasco earlier this spring, for example), does it really matter what's "under the hood"? I know my truck is big and blue and gets me (and the horses) from point A to point B. It does what I need it to do and I quite like it. Just like my mare. She's big and bay and does what I need her to do (mostly ) and I quite like her.

    I guess I need some more info on WHY you'd be doing these tests, Dutch.

    p.s. Forgive me for sounding pissy. I just reread my post and I don't mean to sound pissy. Sarcastic yes (as is my way), pissy no. I was just reading the LP thread over on Dressage and 7 has me in a crabby mood. Sorry 'bout that.
    Steppin Not Dragon "Bella"
    Top Shelf "Charlie"
    Check out the Military + Horses fb page!



  8. #8
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    Feb. 19, 2011
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    Default

    Updated original post now that I have more time, and added a few links where I saw the info earlier.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 20, 2011
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    188

    Default

    In humans saliva testing is for hormones (I think), but I don't think it is supposed to be very accurate. The hair testing is supposed to tell trace levels of vitamins and minerals, I really don't know how reliable it is. I think it can be used as just another tool or method to get more information on what is really going on in your horse, no test really tells the whole story, but if you put them all together there might be something.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan. 9, 2010
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    Milton, FL
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider View Post
    Updated original post now that I have more time, and added a few links where I saw the info earlier.
    Ah! Okay... I get it now.

    My response is "meh" to the whole hair analysis. Unless your horse is ill and you're desperate for an answer, I'd say stick with the basics and do a blood draw. Anything serious would show up, and you'd have a baseline if you decide to do blood draws yearly or bi-yearly.
    Steppin Not Dragon "Bella"
    Top Shelf "Charlie"
    Check out the Military + Horses fb page!



  11. #11
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    Default

    Whenever one is contemplating a diagnostic test, the very best results are gotten when one very clearly has a question in mind that the test is required to answer. The more clear the question, and the more accurate the test is in answering that specific question, the better the answer is going to be.

    The best and fanciest test out there is sometimes quite useless if the test is not able to answer the question at hand. Doing an MRI, for instance, although it can tell us a LOT about our inner workings, is completely the wrong test when we want to know if there's a strep throat.

    What is the specific question you're wanting answered, OP? Is there no other way to answer it than this?
    Click here before you buy.



  12. #12
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    Default

    Thanks DW. The specifics of my curiosity is outline in my op.



  13. #13
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    Default

    I read the OP--are you thinking your horse is injured or has a hoof imbalance? That can't be diagnosed in some other fashion?

    Or just general curiosity?

    Uckele sells mineral analyses because they also sell . . . minerals.
    Click here before you buy.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2012
    Posts
    12

    Default blood panels

    The problem with depending on blood panels is that many of the items tested are kept within normal ranges by homeostasis. By the time the horse's levels are out of range it may be too late to save it. If you think you have a problem another avenue may help you determine if you do.

    I do hair testing on horses but use body hair which is tissue and fetlock hair which is cuticle. Using both body hair and cuticle hair enables one to identify mineral interferences and imbalances.
    Most hair testing labs use mane hair which is cuticle and it is not sufficient for diagnostic purposes. Interpretation of results is the key.

    Susan Cook PhD in toxicology and water quality



  15. #15
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    Feb. 11, 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Get Sweating View Post
    The problem with depending on blood panels is that many of the items tested are kept within normal ranges by homeostasis.
    Ummm.....which would be indicative of a healthy body operating normally.



  16. #16
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    Default

    I do hair testing on horses but use body hair which is tissue and fetlock hair which is cuticle. Using both body hair and cuticle hair enables one to identify mineral interferences and imbalances.
    Can you please elaborate? How are you defining "tissue", precisely WRT body hair? How are you defining "cuticle" and how is this relevant? Please define precisely a mineral interference and how this is identified. Be specific, if you can. I can follow the language. Please include citations indicating that hair mineral analysis (for things besides heavy metals) has been validated and shown to be reproducible and actually reflects what is going on in the living organism.
    Last edited by deltawave; Jun. 23, 2012 at 09:23 PM.
    Click here before you buy.



  17. #17
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    Default

    Wasn't there another toxicology PhD here named Susan selling some product or other a few months back?
    Click here before you buy.



  18. #18
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    Jul. 16, 2003
    Location
    Guthrie, OK
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    Default

    Many, many, MANY years ago I did a tiny little study on hair analysis in horses. I collected samples from different sites on the same horse (about 5 different horses, all on the same day, etc) and sumbitted them for analysis. Used mane, fetlock and a few other places that woud be either "un-noticed" or "routinely" clipped. Talk about a scatter plot!!!! OMG!! Depending on where you sampled you could say anything you wanted about a particular horse's micro/macromineral status.

    Bottom lines:
    1) we don't know what normal values are for the normal micro/macro minerals
    2) we don't know why the values vary by body location
    3) we don't know which location we should use
    4) so we sure as heck have no idea how to interrupt the results!!



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