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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2001
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    We did it! World\'s first buckskin & white TB born!
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    Again in speaking with a friend that does a lot of horse transporting, he is being inundated with horses coming to North America from farms throughout Europe. Whereas previously he would regularily have problems filling the 3rd slot on a pallet he now has the opposite problem - too many horses and not ENOUGH capacity!

    Again, I am hearing of serious North American buyers heading over to Germany and Holland and buying horses while they are over there.Not just window shopping and hoof kicking, but putting down cold hard cash and buying.

    So - (fireproof suit sitting ready and waiting to be donned!)

    What are we doing wrong here that we cannot convince the serious buyers, with cash in hand, that buying locally rather than spending thousands of dollars to fly over there, and several thousand more to bring the horses back is not the intelligent and practical thing to do?

    Are we producing such garbage here that the serious buyers want nothing to do with it?

    Are we importing nothing but 2nd and 3rd rate mares and stallions and producing nothing but 2nd and 3rd rate foals, that the smart buyer realizes this and continues to go overseas to buy the first rate horses in order to be competitive?

    Or - do buyers somehow feel that something that is imported is inherently *better* and more elite than an identical horse produced at the farm next door?

    On so many threads I keep seeing the comments that I cannot sell my horse for a decent price, and you keep seeing ads for what look to be nice locally bred horses for low prices that cannot find a buyer.

    Are too many breeders entering the breeding game with their rose colored glasses firmly in place, breeding inappropriate mares to fashionable stallions who trace back to some famous jumper or dressage horse a few generations back, with the thought that this will make the resultant foal a *hot* commodity?

    We are still a far cry from the scientific and methodical approach that is seemingly in place in European registries and breeders. Ours, I believe, is still very much based on emotional choices for breeding stock and matings rather than a specific reason for why we do what we do, and are we paying for this non scientific approach in the lack of buyers for what we are producing?

    Breeders of Hannoverians, Oldenburgs, Trakehners, Morgans, etc abound on every corner in every city in North America. What are each of them doing better and differently from the competition to make the buyers buy their horses from them instead of from someone else?

    Flame suit donned ...

    True Colours Farm
    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

    Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2001
    Location
    We did it! World\'s first buckskin & white TB born!
    Posts
    5,640

    Default

    Again in speaking with a friend that does a lot of horse transporting, he is being inundated with horses coming to North America from farms throughout Europe. Whereas previously he would regularily have problems filling the 3rd slot on a pallet he now has the opposite problem - too many horses and not ENOUGH capacity!

    Again, I am hearing of serious North American buyers heading over to Germany and Holland and buying horses while they are over there.Not just window shopping and hoof kicking, but putting down cold hard cash and buying.

    So - (fireproof suit sitting ready and waiting to be donned!)

    What are we doing wrong here that we cannot convince the serious buyers, with cash in hand, that buying locally rather than spending thousands of dollars to fly over there, and several thousand more to bring the horses back is not the intelligent and practical thing to do?

    Are we producing such garbage here that the serious buyers want nothing to do with it?

    Are we importing nothing but 2nd and 3rd rate mares and stallions and producing nothing but 2nd and 3rd rate foals, that the smart buyer realizes this and continues to go overseas to buy the first rate horses in order to be competitive?

    Or - do buyers somehow feel that something that is imported is inherently *better* and more elite than an identical horse produced at the farm next door?

    On so many threads I keep seeing the comments that I cannot sell my horse for a decent price, and you keep seeing ads for what look to be nice locally bred horses for low prices that cannot find a buyer.

    Are too many breeders entering the breeding game with their rose colored glasses firmly in place, breeding inappropriate mares to fashionable stallions who trace back to some famous jumper or dressage horse a few generations back, with the thought that this will make the resultant foal a *hot* commodity?

    We are still a far cry from the scientific and methodical approach that is seemingly in place in European registries and breeders. Ours, I believe, is still very much based on emotional choices for breeding stock and matings rather than a specific reason for why we do what we do, and are we paying for this non scientific approach in the lack of buyers for what we are producing?

    Breeders of Hannoverians, Oldenburgs, Trakehners, Morgans, etc abound on every corner in every city in North America. What are each of them doing better and differently from the competition to make the buyers buy their horses from them instead of from someone else?

    Flame suit donned ...

    True Colours Farm
    http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm

    Breeders of unique coloured Thoroughbreds, Sport Horses and Paints



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2000
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    Near the Itchetucknee.Ft.White Fl.
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    3,896

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    I have been here[US]for twenty years and for a long time could not understand why so many people went to Europe and bought horses,so many seemed to be available here.Now I think I understand it better.Have just received one superb 7 yd old from UK.
    Why did we go abroad.Price.Value for money.Bloodlines.in no particular order.Also VERY important,wanted horses that had been properly started in the jumping world,there just don't seem to be the 'nagsmen' here in the US.
    As far as I'm concerned the Jumpers here just are'nt catered to,classes for young horses should not be against the clock.
    The horse we purchased had gone through the young horse classes and prooved himself against his peers.We could buy 2 or 3 like him for the price of one here.To get something similar in bloodlines/training would would have us in the 60,000-100,00 price range.
    I am at this time looking at 2 more in the UK. ,By the time they arrive here they will have cost about $30,000.I just cant find anything here that is truly grand prix material in this price range,that is sound and properly start over fences.. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    fernie fox
    "I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".
    \"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound\".



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2001
    Location
    Fairfax
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    1,693

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    It is often the case, that it is cheaper to get horse in Europe than in the states.

    US breeders have lots of expenses. Not just the costs of breeding and raising, but breaking, training, showing etc. etc. before a nice prospect gets to a point where his/her potential is evident. If horse is showing potential at this point, then you have to add sales commission, often more than one for the professionals in the deal.

    It seems to me (I'm sure some will disagree - just my 2cents) that many of the European breeders can get their 5/6 years olds to that point a little cheaper. Then you have the added advantage of a good exchange rate.

    I have bought 2 horses in the last 3 years. Both times I looked a dozens of horses, both domestic and newly imported. Both times, I ended up with imports (1 German, 1 Irish) In my price range, the imports were jumping around 3'6", demonstrating some talent, well grounded on the flat, and had some limited show experience. In the same price range, the US horses were much greener, not well broken on the flat, and were at the 2'6" or 3" point.

    I think US breeders are doing a great job. The horses bred here are just as nice. I think the industry needs to put some thought into what changes can be made that might help US breeders bring their horses along in a more economic fashion. Sending a greenie to FL to get mileage is not cheap...



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 1999
    Location
    Somerville, NJ, USA
    Posts
    85

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    I agree with all stated above that price is a big factor here. I have a few other things that factor into it, based on my experience. A big one is already mentioned here - properly starting the young horses. I know in dressage, there are very few trainers available to correctly start a young horse, and when you can find one, it's not cheap. This is a big issue for breeders.

    Another is just the size of this country. In Holland or Germany, you can easily look at 100 horses in a week or two. The breeders here are SOOO spread out. You might find a couple in VA, a couple in TX, some in CA. By the time you travel all over the country, you've spent a fortune already.

    And last, and perhaps this is not as important as the prior factors, many of the breeders here try to breed a jack of all trades horse (or at least they market them that way). I've seen ads that said the horse was capable of dressage, hunters, jumpers, and eventing. And perhaps they were, but I tend to think these horses are in the minority. The breeders in Europe have a scientific approach, and breed this mare to this stallion to produce a dressage horse, or a jumper, or, etc.

    Fran



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2002
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    Maybe in the jumper world it is different, but in the dressage world I have heard (and seen first hand) so many horror stories about importing horses from Germany, that I bought a really nice horse domestically bred here. I looked into importing, but without knowing someone overseas or a liason that I COULD REALLY TRUST, I just thought it was too risky to import. I know someone who was working with a supposed trustworthy liason who sold her a horse that was blind in one eye, and 5 others that had serious lameness and health problems. She probably spent a good $300K on all these horses total. Papers were falsified, information was left out of the translation from the vet reports, the horse's identities were false. She now has a bunch of big, gorgeous pasture ornaments. I personally think it would be nice to import if I knew someone who I could definitely trust, but this person also thought she could trust her broker, and got royally scr****. There are very nice domestically bred horses out there, and just as many junk ones. Just do your research, have someone with experience shop with you, and vet them very carefully with a vet you can trust. When you shop close to home you have a lot more legal recourse, and it's less likely someone will try to con you since litigation here is very easy to bring on. I love my mare and she is just as good quality as an import (both sire & dam-sire were imported), and she didn't even cost as much as an import would have. You just have to look around a lot. Don't be afraid to make lower offers, there's a lot of breeders that will negotiate heavily, especially if they have a choice between feeding/housing that horse for 3 years until they can get a premium price, or getting a reasonable, but lower price for it now to make room for more babies!



  7. #7
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    Feb. 26, 2002
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    Up Nort whar tis COLD
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    It is not that our horses are overpriced per say, the fact is that the dollar is very strong against the Euro, so it is very easy for Americans to go over and get a horse for a decent price. We breeders pay more for our land, grain, showing, etc. We also do not have access to top trainers. There are very few trainers that specialize in starting and showing young horses. This is the same reason you can go up to Canada to find a decent horse at a reasonable price--the dollar is strong against those currencies.

    I have come across several "european" imports that friends have purchased. German and Dutch. One German horse was crazy and one of the Dutch hores was very hot. To top it off, the Dutch mare had a chip in her fetlock that was hidden by taking a slightly different angled xray. Poo poo on the vet for allowing that. Of course, that can happen here too. If you have an agent you can trust, great. If not, buyer beware in a foreign country.

    There are breeders that are breeding for quantity, however, I think they are in the minority. The problem also lies when people breed to unapproved stallions and flood the market with low quality offspring.

    You also then get the trainers who tell their clients they simply cannot look at a horse unless it is from europe. Prestige, you know. Part of the problem is the most of us breeders do not have a direct outlet to top trainers and their clients. So then the trainers can't find a good horse without traveling thousands of miles. Why do that when you can go to europe for a week and look at 400 horses in 7 days with minimal time spent traveling?

    Auctions in Europe are a very big deal. US buyers flock to them. Here, not so much. It depends on the host farm's reputation. The Oaks and Glenwood have excellent reputations, as does Valhalla. We need more auctions as means for breeders to sell and promote their programs. We need to educate trainers and their clients to utilize these auctions. We need to be careful that the horses at the auctions all are of high quality that we will bring in good clients (such as the Elite Auctions in Germany). Have different auctions such as mare & foal auctions, riding horse auctions, etc.

    We need to educate breeders to recognize early the potential of young stock so they can be marketed appropriately. Hunters are marketed as such, as are jumpers and dressage horses. If you try to market a hunter as a dressage horse, you are going to get clients that are unhappy with your breeding program--simply because the horse is not meant for the discipline they originally thought.

    Our breeding farms are NOT importing second and third rate stallions. Look at these examples: Riverman, Feinbrand and his sire Feiner Stern, Donnershlag, Iroko, Amiral, Freestyle, Contango, Aram, Galoubet, Graf Top II, Herzzauber, Navarone.

    Hopeful Farm Sport Horses -- Home of the licensed RPSI stallion, Remarkable.
    http://www.hopefulfarm.com



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 26, 2002
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    Up Nort whar tis COLD
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:

    The difference was huge, particulary in overall philosophy. The QH and Arab people (all small farms except two) really knew their stuff on the breeding better than the WB people (three small, and one rather large and well known). WB People here are crossing crossbreds then claining that the offspring are comparable in potential to foals that have been line bred. They might be nicer individuals BUT you cannot evaluate them the same way as babies as you can a horse whose family and its talents are well known.

    Over and over: 1/2 Han mare out of their OTTB bm, who gets a premium rating. Great. Then they breed it to a crossbred stallion, maybe an ID cross or a Han/TB cross. Then they claim the baby as comparable as an Han or Irish bred. NO ITS NOT. It's 1/2 American TB, and half the time the mares breeding is only presented in vaguest detail unless you probe, ie "oh she has Northern Dancer lines", preferring instead to go on about the sire, or in some cases the stallions sire. And the mares aren't even broke. I did not see one QH person who claimed their BM had "a good temperment" b/c she came over to the fence looking for treats when we walked by, whereas I heard it twice from WB breeders. I mean, come on [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Twice they couldn't find the mares papers and faxed them later. PLus it pi$#%%d me off.

    The QH and Arab people on the other hand were upfront with photocopies of the mare pedrigrees, assuming we would know the studs (but they had that too). They discussed the mares acheivements, their siblings acheivements and even had pictures/videos. They talked about known crosses and outcrosses and generally treated us like the knowledgeable horsepeople we were.

    There are obviously some great breeders here, breeding truly fabulous horses, but the local small breeder where so many people in Europe get their horses are simply not up to snuff here on their customer relations.

    I also think if they dropped the imported stallion trends and concentrated on breeding to locally known horses they would sell a heck of a lot more. Just my $.02 but if I consistently get beaten in the ring by your wonderful mare, who is evantually bought by a local breeder and bred to a stallion I have also seen and like I am going to want to own that foal a LOT. I will breed my mare to the stud I know b/c I know his whole family and the worst of them is still a pretty nice horse!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree. There are a lot of WB breeders who are totally ignorant of breeding. I have a ton of books on bloodlines, I save magazines from 20 years ago, etc. I'm constantly trying to stay on top of bloodlines. The problem arises when you have 20+ different WB breeds. I am most familiar with Holsteiner, Hanoverian, and Oldenburg bloodines as well as TB bloodlines. I'm relatively new with Dutch and am only familiar with about 2 generations. If I were dealing with only one breed, I would feel more secure in knowing 7 generations of breeding. I'm familiar with my stallions breeding past 6 generations.

    I think it is unfair to criticize the TB in modern WB breeding. The problem arises when people breed a TB mare because she is cheap and she has a uterus.

    The most successful Warmblood stallions in the past century were 1/2TB: Landgraf, Lord, Cor de la Bryere, Furioso II, Sandro, Paradox, Pik Koenig. All were by TB sires.

    If we have ignorant mare owners that continue to purchase TB mares that are of poor quality, it is up to the registries to evaluate these mares and turn them down--like the Hanoverian registry does.

    The two broodmares I own, one is F1 (1/2 TB) and one is 1/4 TB. Most likely I will never own another TB broodmare. Not because I wouldn't own one, but because it is VERY difficult to find a top quality TB mare. I love the TB influence. I loved my recently deceased premium TB mare. She was very consistent in what she passed along to her offspring.

    I used to send copies of my horses' pedigrees when sending out videos. I don't anymore because 99.9% of the people looking had no idea who any of the horses on the pedigree were! If it is requested, I send a copy.

    Hopeful Farm Sport Horses -- Home of the licensed RPSI stallion, Remarkable.
    http://www.hopefulfarm.com



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2001
    Location
    Indiana
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    3,290

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    I too think it is unfair to criticize the use of TBs per se in NA breeding. I think one of the big problems, which set us back a few steps, is that originally when a NA breeder did use a TB mare, they tended to use the clunkiest warmblood available - or used that with the offspring. While Europe was breeding typeier and typeier, we were not breeding our TB mares to type here. I don't think that was a good decision necessarily.

    I do think it is a problem to be breeding mares you don't want to ride. If you don't want to ride the mom - why would she give you a foal you want to ride?? So that is a very legitimate criticism.

    And while our US costs are high, I don't think we can hide behind that - I think we have to bite the bullet and determine whether we can be competitive on the economic front - if not we have to be realistic.

    By far our biggest problems, IMO, are that 1)we do tend to overprice weanlings; 2)we don't have good concentration of breeders for buyer or good concentrated venues (this gets me back on my regionalization soapbox - already nuff said there) and 3)BIGGEST PROBLEM IMO - we don't have a good economic way to get horses started and get show miles on them without it costing a fortune.

    Getting a young horse on the ground and keeping it in the typical pasture setting is much cheaper in Europe AND getting a horse started under saddle and shoing is much cheaper.

    So in addition to my regionalization soapbox, I have an infrastructure soapbox. Friend from Germany and who go to visit constantly comment on how many stables and trainers and instructors are available. We will have to address this issue. We don't have this in most areas of the country. We worry about marketing a lot - but we should be equally or more concerned about infrastructure. Instead of building it and worrying about whether they come - "If you build it they will come" we worry about getting everyone on the bandwagon before we have bandwagon.

    "If you don't build it - will it matter if they come?"

    Lack of infrastructure is a big reason we have such problems with developing riders, trainers, having competent development of young horses, etc. So this is not just a breeder's issue, but an overall development of the sport issue IMO.

    Love my TB mares and am very happy to ride them too!
    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    But we need a way to start horses that is not so costly as 600/month plus 800/month show expenses.

    Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2000
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    Whistler, BC
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jr:
    It is often the case, that it is cheaper to get horse in Europe than in the states.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Exactly! This is one of the things I was thinking about when I asked if foals were overpriced. That same $15,000-$20,000 for a foal could get me something going from Europe! (although probably not including shipping etc).

    I also totally agree with both posters who mentioned that in many cases just "any old mare" is being bred. I realize that is not always the case, but too often I see ads for really odd mixes like "hannoverian/morgan" or "dutch/qh/arab" and the like. And having seen some of these first hand while helping a friend look for a horse - they are NOT good crosses. And dare I say it, not what the "A" level h/j riders are interested in.

    Maybe I am a snob, but I would more than likely go to Europe for my next horse. Although there are some nice horses being bred here, they are still not as nice as some of the imported ones I've seen AND the nice ones here are insanely expensive [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    Its too bad so many are over priced as there certainly are some nice ones, but I'm not paying $30,000 for a 3 year old or $50,000 for a 4 year old that has done nothing but look pretty.

    Out of curiousity, why do some breeders cross their nice stallions on top of clydes, morgans and quarter horses? While they are all super breeds on their own, none were bred specifically for sporthorse purposes, and using them to make sporthorses seems rather incongruous.
    You Strike Me Still



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2001
    Location
    Interlochen, Michigan USA
    Posts
    1,226

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    This is one of those subjects that causes breeders to climb the soapbox....

    Price appears to be a huge factor in the European vs American horse purchases. The dollar is still doing well against the european currency, because countries like Germany have been in the economic dumper longer than the US.

    The cachet of owning an imported horse is also a factor, even still. There is still the supposition of quality with imported horses, the grass is greener, snob appeal, or whatever it is.

    Fact is, many American breeders are doing just great in producing good horses. The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality if better HERE.

    Not all of us breeders are ignorant of bloodlines or follow the path of grabbing the cheapo TB mare to cross on a WB stallion, to bootstrap our ways into the WB market. Many of us realize that usually the preferred cross of TB or Arab into WB is to put the blood on top. Most people who have bred for any great length of time also see that the mare has more influence over the quality resulting foal than the stallion, assuming a good mare and good stallion to begin with. Why exactly the genetics work that way I do not know, but I have seen it over and over. Many of us breeders have invested significantly in excellent breeding stock on which to found our breeding operations.

    At the risk of sounding snobby, as a breeder who is doing her utmost to make good crosses and produce excellent foals, it becomes very tiresome that many typical shoppers do not really know what they are looking at. When they are comparing so many horses that are all advertised as "FEI potential!" and "stallion prospect!", and don't have the knowledge to discern between these prospects and realistically make their own calls, the supposition seems to be that the cheapest "FEI prospect" is the price to beat, those above are over-priced, and something from Europe is intrinsically worth more.

    I know this is a point of contention, but generally Europeans do not really let the best horses go. They will not sell their top breeding stock or competition horses without other motivations. I know of one person in Germany who has taken heat in Germany for her part in arranging the export of a highly credentialled and promising horse.

    Prices are high here for TOP QUALITY horses because of the rarity factor of WB's, the fact that part WBs are advertised as WBs and dilute the market, and the fact that it is extremely expensive to produce and raise a horse here.

    Now that US breeders have made such strides in improving the quality of our warmbloods, I ask that people with money in hand do not shoot us in the feet by buying elsewhere. If you drive the good, conscientious breeders out of business, all that will be left to buy are the horses that can be made more cheaply (ie, with cheap mares, often OTTB). Support America by buying American! When the Euro rises against the dollar, and it is cheaper to buy here, what will be available if our breeding standards fall?

    For those of you ready to buy an unstarted prospect, please give US breeders a chance. In fact, come look at my horses! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    Ingrid
    Tannenwald Trakehner

    Breeding American Trakehners -
    European Engineering, Made in America
    Trakehner Treffpunkt & Tannenwald Trakehner
    Breeders & Friends of American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!
    AND ... Breeding-Stallions.com



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 20, 2000
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    Whistler, BC
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
    The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality if better HERE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is not quite the right statistical look at it. The science of averages indicates that a smaller test group will yield a higher percentage than a larger group. There are fewer horses here, so the average number of good ones will be higher. There are more warmbloods in Europe, so the average will be lower. It does NOT mean that the horses here are better. Sorry.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Prices are high here for TOP QUALITY horses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That I also disagree with. Prices are high here in general, not just for the top quality ones. I have seen some not so nice homebred warmbloods being offered for sale for large sums of money. As an owner of a St.Pr. Hannoverian mare I am quite familiar with quality!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Someone on my other thread mentioned that these prices were a reflection of the breeder's "dream horse" and I tend to agree with that. I think in many cases the reality is quite different.

    Call me cynical if you like, but I have just seen too many over priced horses.
    You Strike Me Still



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2001
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    Indiana
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    well, I put on my TB mare hat again, the one with the ears pointed straight back! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    First though - saying that it is expensive to raise a good foal here in the US does not address the buyer's issues - if the foals are so spread out here and are more expensive and are harder to locate - why shouldn't they go to Europe?

    Saying that they should sift through the plethora of ads and videos and discern for themselves the difference does not address their question. Why not just go to Europe to get a good concentration of nice foals (with some duds too but all in easy distance of each other) to pick from? I think weanlings here are overpriced - in part because of stud fees. This tends to equalize out later, but not if the breeder at 3 or so has to put in expensive training fees because there are no good economic options available. And the high cost of showing does not help equalize out the costs for miles either.

    But the answer to the high costs is not to tell the buyers to just stay home and pay more. Instead the breeders need to be realistic on weanling and yearling prices, put pressure on stud fees, and then work together for sensible training and sales venues. It is not the buyer's fault or problem - it is our (the breeders')problem. We have to be the ones to fix it if we want our business to succeed.

    I completely do NOT buy into the "only proven approach is the blood on top" theory. Baloney boogers.
    1)Every great TB stallion that you are putting on top had blood on the bottom too [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]
    2)I suppose every filly that resulted from your blood on top crossing should have been rigorously culled from the breeding population in Europe because now, heaven forbid, the blood is coming in on the bottom. Funny the Europeans didn't notice that and follow that system
    3)Warmblood mares in Europe were big coarse farm horses by and large - they could not import a whole new mare base to replace their rather inappropriate sporthorse models, so as united regional registries that recognized what their regions needed, they brought in refining stallions to refine their coarse mares. How in the world can this be genetically extrapolated to saying that you cannot get a nice horse using a TB mare because the blood has to be on top - don't think there is any logical nexus or reasoned support for this, although it is a popular phrase to drop when you want to sell European mares
    4)Heaven forbid that we should attempt to utilize a breed in our breeding programs that has never done anything but excell for us in competition (Gem Twist, Touch of Class, Bally Cor, Sloopy, Jet Run, Keen, Idle Dice.....) Everyone knows, you destroy a breed when you use ol OTTBs like Ladykiller and Furioso in your breeding approach. I don't mind being the unpopular one here - I think we have a FAR superior mare base, with our crummy TBs, than the Europeans had - I guess the fact that they are breeding more and more for a modern horse that looks more and more TB means that they have realized that TBs are useless in any breeding effort. HMMMMM. Balderdash. The issue is not whether the mare is a TB or even, heaven forbid, an OTTB, but whether the mare is a nice performance animal, with TRY.
    5)Gee, get 100 foals from a stallion, 40 really nice, 40 ok and 20 crappy, and the stallion is thought to be pretty good - get one bad foal from a mare and she is junk? Numbers will never support the TB mare bc you get more to pick from with the stallion
    6)What were we thinking breeding those mares to old, old, old fashioned stallions? The stallions the Europeans wanted to get rid of, because they were moving on to a different, more modern style. So we went backwards, not forwards, breeding our mares- not to similar modern types of stallions, but to oldfashioned tankers. Duh. THis is not a resounding success. This is not the mare's fault though.
    7)REally believe in putting the blood on top - fine, lets get rid of all the warmblood stallions - obviously they just won't work out. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    8)while we have been busy taking the blood out of our domestic horses so that our riders don't have to bother to learn how to ride - the shining international stars are riding, hot, hotter and hottest. Why? Because they can and that is what wins for them. Our problem isn't our horses, it is that once upon a time, you used to be able to say about a TB horse that it needed an American rider, not a German or Germanic "tough" ride. Now, the only ones who seem able and willing to ride the hot horses are the Europeans (with a nod to South American jumper riders too) We need to kick bu** and put some finesse back in our riders, so they are good enough for our horses.
    9)YOu will never have an economically competitive domestic product with a constantly imported mare base. The Europeans knew bettter than to try that and we should too. Econ 101.

    OK, Icould go on but I need to stop. I don't mean to be nasty - but somehow no one ever seems to worry about saying nasty things about our TB mare base and my girls are like, well, my girls.

    BTW, the Eurpopean girls don't shave under their arms. I don't want to do everything like the Europeans. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]



  14. #14
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    Oct. 29, 1999
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    My breeding animals are very carefully selected from top bloodlines. I have an Imported Hanoverian (mother is SPS), a Dutch/Hann cross, a Dutch/TB cross, and a TB mare. ALL have produced foals that have done very well at Dressage at Devon in open classes - 30 to 40 in a class against the imports. My mares have produced 2 - 3rd place colts, + a 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th place foals. (The 11th out of my TB mare by Nevada was in a class of 42 and placed higher than an imported filly that I recently saw advertised at $20,000.) I sold my filly for $5000.

    Unlike several of the top farms, I only have a few foals per year and usually take them ALL to Devon, not just the best couple out of 20 to 50? Most of the time, they have placed TOP 10. One 3rd place colt, the 7th, 9th, and 10th were also handled by a girl that boards at my farm and had never handled before. My foals also have been younger than most as my 2 3rd place colts were 3 and 3 1/2 months. The 11th place filly was not even 3 months.

    I consistently produce this quality because I have done my homework. There are lots of excellent horses being bred in the US and wonderful bargains here at home.

    I also think we are making a HUGE mistake breeding lighter and lighter horses. Yes, Nicole Uphoff may be able to win double golds on them, but the reliable ones like Goldstern performed wonderfully too. I want a horse with true suspension, and power. I think there needs to be all kinds. I watch the Hanoverians license very TBy stallions that move like TBs, and then later award Champion foal to a Gold Luck baby that is an absolute tank. Why? Because NONE of the "modern" type foals can move like that. DUH! Maybe a little common sense here?

    One of the best Ammateur Dressage riders I know rides and owns a huge, older type 6 year old Hanoverian. She didn't buy the "thud monster" because she can't ride, but because she loves riding the suspension, and rhythm of the older type - loves the brain and phenomenal gaits.

    Everyone wants a pretty head, but when I see a stallion advertised covered in sweat, veins popping out, and eyes wild , I RUN!!!

    Flame suit on!

    [This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Mar. 08, 2002 at 02:35 PM.]



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2001
    Posts
    539

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    Spot -

    I think its mostly a matter of Sport Horse breeders in Europe having a cost advantage. In Germany, there are a variety of govt programs that subsidize horse breeding just like we subsidize Dairy farming in NA. Also, Western riding, TB & Harness racing are conducted on a much smaler or negligble scale in Europe, so there are fewer competing forces driving up the price of horse-breeding resources (mostly land).

    Over here, it doesnt help that breeding classes are geared toward picking 'all round' performers instead of horses that will excel in a particular discipine.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2001
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    Interlochen, Michigan USA
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
    The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality is better HERE.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    by Jair:

    That is not quite the right statistical look at it. The science of averages indicates that a smaller test group will yield a higher percentage than a larger group. There are fewer horses here, so the average number of good ones will be higher. There are more warmbloods in Europe, so the average will be lower. It does NOT mean that the horses here are better. Sorry.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Please elaborate on this. Barring a very small and statistically worthless sample, I missed this phenomenon when I took Probability & Statistics. And even when running isolated chemistry trials, statistically 3 samples was the best balance of statistical reliability and time efficiency, so how large of a sample is needed to show true "averages" may not be so high at all.

    ______________________________________________
    quote: Prices are high here for TOP QUALITY horses
    ____________________

    That I also disagree with. Prices are high here in general, not just for the top quality ones. I have seen some not so nice homebred warmbloods being offered for sale for large sums of money. As an owner of a St.Pr. Hannoverian mare I am quite familiar with quality!!
    ______________________________________________

    I apologize for a lack of clarity here. I was defending pricing for TOP QUALITY foals, not saying that only top quality ones are priced high.

    Indeed, I think the problem--and what drives a lot of people overseas--is too often seeing overly high prices for mediocre quality. Buyers who can tell quality when they see it get tired of sifting, and buyers who can't shoot for the lower prices. And a lot of that mediocre quality comes from a poor selection of broodmares and/or a poor match of a given mare with a stallion. Not to say every OTTB is trash, not at all, but the majority of track-bred TBs do not have warmblood conformation (ie, built downhill, lownecked, etc). I certainly am not saying TBs are good for the track or nothing -- very few top eventers achieve that level without good TB blood. I still maintain that the average race bred filly is not an ideal sporthorse breeding prospect.

    _______________________________________________

    quote by mbp:

    First though - saying that it is expensive to raise a good foal here in the US does not address the buyer's issues - if the foals are so spread out here and are more expensive and are harder to locate - why shouldn't they go to Europe? Saying that they should sift through the plethora of ads and videos and discern for themselves the difference does not address their question. Why not just go to Europe to get a good concentration of nice foals (with some duds too but all in easy distance of each other) to pick from? I think weanlings here are overpriced - in part because of stud fees. This tends to equalize out later, but not if the breeder at 3 or so has to put in expensive training fees because there are no good economic options available. And the high cost of showing does not help equalize out the costs for miles either. But the answer to the high costs is not to tell the buyers to just stay home and pay more. Instead the breeders need to be realistic on weanling and yearling prices, put pressure on stud fees, and then work together for sensible training and sales venues. It is not the buyer's fault or problem - it is our (the breeders') problem. We have to be the ones to fix it if we want our business to succeed.
    ___________________________________________

    From this it sounds to me like the breeders should just pack it in and not try to breed for the American market, unless they can afford to invest incredible amounts of money and risk then give away a good foal at the expense of production.

    I think the only way to prevent large numbers of less than quality horses from flooding the market is to stringently apply inspection criteria. Problem with this, is most of the American wings of the registries are machines that need money from inspections for fiscal survival. If horses don't get approved, who will continue to present them?

    There are enough people with pride and devotion to developing a viable American sporthorse to have founded registries to accomplish those ends. I am not for a minute saying I agree with their politics or approval standards in all cases, but apparently people think it is important to make competition horses in the US.

    Even if a horse can be bought here for the same as in Europe, including import, plenty of buyers would rather have the imported horse for the panache. And with that philosophy, I don't know how the US can maintain a really good sporthorse base, and stay producing enough to be progressive and competitive with the rest of the world.

    For all of the reasons to buy, and all of the problems with shopping, in the US, I don't have a simple answer. But I do believe that we will lose the ground we have gained in breeding if we do not support breeding efforts in this country.

    _______________________________________________
    quote by mbp:

    I completely do NOT buy into the "only proven approach is the blood on top" theory. Baloney boogers

    ______________________________________________

    Good for you. You are not quoting me. I can list several TB mares in the Trakehner alone worth their weights in gold, not the least of which is Arcticonius xx, dam of 3 approved stallions and 2 States Premium and Verband Premium mares.

    It has been demonstrated many times in warmblood breeding that the TB/WB cross is more genetically reliable than the WB/TB cross, and that makes for preference in putting the blood on top. Notwithstanding mares influencing the foals, it is sensible for anatomical reasons to use a heavier mare and lighter stallion, in the interest of keeping the foals a healthy size for the mare.

    The example of a pure TB having blood on top and bottom is not relevant, nor is the example using an Anglo-WB mare because it brings TB into the bottom. The issue is the first generation TB/WB vs WB/TB cross, the latter of which has been demonstrated as not as predictable from a breeding standpoint.

    I am not trying to sell European mares. I do not advocate breeding every WB mare any more than I would advocate breeding every TB mare. I do not agree that our mare base is better than what is available in Europe. But for all of the good breeding prospects in the OTTB world, there seem to be a zillion more less-than-good that are routinely purchased and bred. Whatever your personal selection criteria are for your TB mare band, can you deny that there are a plethora of other people breeding non-broodmare OTTB prospects?

    ___________________________________________
    quote by mbp:

    Gee, get 100 foals from a stallion, 40 really nice, 40 ok and 20 crappy, and the stallion is thought to be pretty good - get one bad foal from a mare and she is junk? Numbers will never support the TB mare bc you get more to pick from with the stallion
    _____________________________________________

    Not sure where this is coming from. I would look at three foals by various stallions before writing an otherwise promising mare off as a good breeder. However, for all of the wonderful combinations that can arise genetically in each mating, and some excellent surprises where a foal has far out-shone both parents, those surprises are pretty rare. Generally you can see in a foal where each of its characteristics came from, top or bottom. So it is prudent to select only the most promising horses to try the breeding in the first place.

    _____________________________________________
    QUOTE by mbp:

    REally believe in putting the blood on top - fine, lets get rid of all the warmblood stallions - obviously they just won't work out.
    _____________________________________________

    This is just plain silly. TB is added to WB to refine and add other good attributes. Putting the blood on top is a means of improving the WB base. Your argument seems to be from the perspective that the goal in using WBs is to make TB crosses, which is beyond left field.

    No one is trying to slam every person who uses TBs in their programs. If you are a breeder scooping up cheap mares without regard to quality, in the effort to make a buck in the
    business with minimal investment, you know who you are. No offense intended to anyone else.

    While American women may have the Europeans whipped in shaving (and I have had some pretty icky experiences pool-side in Germany), I think we do better to drop the bravado and learn from the European breeding model. Not that I agree with everything they are doing at present in the evolution of the WB type, but they have been cultivating this kind of horse a lot longer than we have.
    Trakehner Treffpunkt & Tannenwald Trakehner
    Breeders & Friends of American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!
    AND ... Breeding-Stallions.com



  17. #17
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    Sep. 17, 2001
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    O yeah I forgot to add my .02 on the TB/WB debate.

    I dont think there's an advantage either way. The only thing the different flavours of WB have in common with EACH OTHER is that they all have a whole lot of TB in their pedigree.



  18. #18
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    Jun. 20, 2000
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    Tannewald said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The director of the Hannoverian Verband recently stated that the overall quality of Warmblood foals here exceeds that in Europe--though our populations are smaller, the average quality is better HERE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, I am not about to get into a whole scientific discussion on statisics and averages etc. - as that is my day job! But I guess another way of putting what I am thinking in terms of your quote, is that I find it very hard to believe, and I can't help thinking that the Director was just being nice. If the average of high quality foals is higher here, then where are they all now? Why aren't there more being ridden internationally etc? But then that goes back to the fact that the pros still buy overseas.... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

    Thank you for clarifying your point about High Priced Quality horses. I do agree - the big problem is the poor quality ones that people think should be high priced [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    I still tend to agree more with what mph and some of the others are saying more [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    As someone who does have the income to buy a nice horse, it will be a while before I trust what I can buy here at home.
    You Strike Me Still



  19. #19
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    Nov. 14, 2001
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    Interlochen, Michigan USA
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
    it will be a while before I trust what I can buy here at home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What does "trust" mean? Think you are finding value for your money? Think you are finding equal quality? TIA for the clarification
    Trakehner Treffpunkt & Tannenwald Trakehner
    Breeders & Friends of American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!
    AND ... Breeding-Stallions.com



  20. #20
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    Jan. 26, 2000
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    Sorry analysis was my profession. The average scores of US foals vs. European foals is just that the average of all those horses presented and evaluated. It's not a statistical sampling to render a norm or trend or range. Perhaps you were thinking "mean" instead of "average".

    Regarding quality - it's definitely here and now the quality is coming through in our home bred fillies coming of breeding age and producing higher quality foals.

    Why aren't these superior foals competing - well one HUGE problem is lack of suitable trainers. Germany, HOlland etal have farms that just specialize in starting young horses with a solid foundation. Here! Well we have to search high and low and then the cost is a killer. Here in NJ a good training barn is $1000 per month w/training. AND - we back our horses before they leave the farm because most of the training facilities are also boarding facilities. And believe me - THOSE BOARDERS - have NO patience for young horses.

    Our homebred horses are moving up the ranks but it will be a few more years before that happens. Also - how do you even know if the horses were born here??? They seem to NEVER list the BREEDER on results unless it's an imported horse!

    Our upper level Dressage riders seem to be allergic to riding lower levels - where Europeans will bring youngs horses along.



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