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  1. #81
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2000
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    4,699

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    Regarding Coppelia's two pictures - go look at her first picture in the thread "4 year old critique please." Overall a nice photo with the horse's poll up. Notice though (and Coppelia, I'll even loan you my frying pan to smack me with after I make this point) that he is not trotting in diagonal pairs. Three legs are grounded almost simultaneously. I can forgive this since he's 4 and stuff like this will happen during those moments when the hind legs aren't active enough.

    Now, go to the picture of this nice, young horse being ridden deep. In addition to a wonderfully round outline and good reaching under of the hind legs, you can see that his legs are moving in clear diagonal pairs with two legs off the ground and two legs on the ground. The loosening of the back that deep encourages will improve a horse's gaits (when done correctly, of course) -- the schwung and the purity.

    And Velvet is right when she says you can't explain deep - you have to ride it under the supervision of someone like Anky.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique



  2. #82
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2001
    Posts
    1,031

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    Lovely horse and rider but
    I'd like to see a better defined trapezius muscle....



  3. #83
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2001
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    245

    Default

    Wow, Suzy! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] cool.

    We have had to really work to make sure Coppelia keeps the 4 year old active. He sometimes is concentrating so hard on the task at hand that he gets almost "stuck" on the ground. We have done loads of trotting poles and encouraged him to do these poles in a "deep" frame [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] . He has even gotten to the point of doing raised trot poles and his topline and strength of movement has changed dramatically.

    Very cool what you have observed just from these two photos. Soooooo, how about doing virtual coaching? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]



  4. #84
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2001
    Location
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Posts
    232

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    Your boy is beautiful, however, he is quite on the forehand, and his back end is not as forward as his front legs are behind, which means that he is not working up as well as he could be. The rider is also perched forward which could also will contribute to the horse being forehandy.

    This is not a pretty picture especially to see a young horse so behind the verticle as he is. His nose should be out and not nearly so restricted especially at this stage of his training.

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
    http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

    I\'m aging like fine wine....I\'m getting complex and fruity...



  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2000
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,947

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    As a pro-deep (WHEN NEEDED AND NOT OVERDONE) rider, I have to comment how much I was also ONCE AGAINST DEEP.

    Then, as Velvet says, I rode it.

    Fred, with his short neck, tight back and stiff withers, came around like a pro. In one season, we moved successfully from 1st level to schooling third level. With so LITTLE effort. DEEP proved key to be the key to unlock Fred's tight back and withers -- it LENGTHENED HIS NECK, ENGAGED HIS HOCKS BETTER (no more pogo stick horse! WOW!), and got enough SWUNG so for the first time EVER I could sit the trot.

    All other instructors before me told to do "this or that" so I could sit the trot. It was always my fault and I believed it. Then, a European-based trainer came over and said, "Your back is excellent - it isn't the problem. NO ONE could sit on that back because he isn't has no SWUNG -- He isn't letting you."

    Immediately at that point, I was instructed to ride deep. In a DAY I was COMFORTABLE SITTING the swinging back in the trot. As Velvet says, don't knock it until you have FELT IT.

    Oh, and thank God Anky, Isabel, Ulla and Nicole did NOT refuse DEEP as a concept. If so, we would have been deprived of their lovely horses with swinging backs, upraised withers, etc.

    Copp: As for your last photo, the horse could be more UP and more ROUND in the withers and at the base of the neck. He looks somewhat collapsed in the withers -- downhill and not stepping UP AND THRU enough.

    Keep at it, we all struggle most of the time. I am sorry to be critical, but those who are anti-deep are gonna LOVE that photo -- maybe you were just caught at a bad moment?

    "If dressage were EASY, everyone would do it."
    "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."



  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
    Location
    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
    Posts
    14,049

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    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I will say only one more thing...I think the word they used was probably "schwung." [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2000
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,947

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    I am getting KILLED on the UD BB:

    http://www.ultimatedressage.com/ubb/...ML/006517.html
    "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."



  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2000
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,947

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    OK, Velvet, you say POTATOE and I say POTATO, You say TOMATOE and I say.... LOL! Yes, you are correct, as always. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
    "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."



  9. #89
    Join Date
    Sep. 22, 2001
    Posts
    26

    Default

    You have started to tell me what you're accomplishing, or trying to accomplish, with riding deep. Tell me more. Why do you think it works, what is happening?

    I am not criticizing anyone. I'm asking why certain things are done. Granted that you may not be able to explain how it feels until you've ridden it, but you should know *why* you're doing it.



  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
    Location
    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
    Posts
    14,049

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    If you're going to play in the Devil's playground, you have to be willing to beat up some demons! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Runaway from the darkside! Come back to us--the good side of the force! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  11. #91
    Join Date
    Sep. 22, 2001
    Posts
    26

    Default

    I went to the site you posted and read your comments. Thanks again, you've really helped me get an understanding, as did Oakhill Stables. Very good explanations and I'm beginning to see how 'deep' could be a useful tool.



  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jan. 11, 2000
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,947

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    my alias. One of those ladies will probably be judging me at the next show ... if they have ever ridden, that is.

    Ah, I tend not to be loyal to any one board, but I do love hearing all the funnies on this one. It is much more lively than many. Thanks for the laughs, gals.
    "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."



  13. #93
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2000
    Posts
    324

    Default

    Remember.....people used to think that world was FLAT too. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]



  14. #94
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2000
    Posts
    4,699

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    >>>Your boy is beautiful, however, he is quite on the forehand, and his back end is not as forward as his front legs are behind, which means that he is not working up as well as he could be. The rider is also perched forward which could also will contribute to the horse being forehandy.

    Wow, you are a tough crowd to please. To everyone who has made criticisms of this horse, PLEASE remember that he is ONLY 4 years old. Also, he is a big, rangy horse. Of course, you can't have perfection at this stage. Please give this talented rider and nice horse a break, would you. There is more to praise about this horse/rider combination than to dis. If you have better pictures, please do post. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique



  15. #95
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
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    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Of course, you can't have perfection at this stage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What sort of a DQ are you? Shame on you for tarnishing your tiara!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  16. #96
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2001
    Location
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Posts
    232

    Default

    She is the one that asked us how we thought the horse was. I told her. I realize that the horse is a 4 year old. But this person thought that this was a good frame? This is what I perceved her to be saying. I was just telling her that he was in fact not stepping up as far as she thought, and he was so far behind the verticle to be dumping on the forehand. Having a baby on the forehand is expected, but it could be lessened if she would sit up and back, and push his nose in front of the verticle, so that he is a bit more free to balance himself. I did say that I thought he was a lovely horse! Are we not supposed to give an honest reply when one is asked? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]
    http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

    I\'m aging like fine wine....I\'m getting complex and fruity...



  17. #97
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2001
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    245

    Default

    Hey Muley, it's ok.

    It's the positive and negative responses that help us all learn. ANY opinion is valuable as long as it is not mean spirited and none have been so far.

    I know Coppelia is very interested in what everyone has to say and she does not get discouraged or disgruntled in the least. She would not open herself up to such a discussion if she was not ready for the good......and the bad.
    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]



  18. #98
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2001
    Location
    in a world gone mad....
    Posts
    1,269

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    I am new to dressage (from Hunter background) andI've been doing so much reading and watching etc. and I think the one thing that 'bothers' me about how Anky's horses look, is that the neck is just a little too tight and the face is behind the verticle like ^] instead of ^\. ^=horse's ear.
    From what I've learned, it seems the horse needs some freedom in the neck and head to be able to move forward freely. Is the fact that she is constricting the head and neck slightly what is 'deep'? Please don't be offended, I think she is a beautiful rider, but it does appear she doesn't follow classical dressage in these photos? Anyone who can explain---please do! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
    \"Donuts. Is there anything they can\'t do?\"
    ~Homer



  19. #99
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
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    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
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    When you ride deep, the horse learns to stretch over the topline and round in the front to complete the "bouncing ball" effect through the back...and naturally wants to stay rounded in the front as well. So, there's no "restriction."

    [This message was edited by Velvet on Sep. 27, 2001 at 01:11 PM.]
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  20. #100
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2001
    Location
    in a world gone mad....
    Posts
    1,269

    Default

    Sorry, still confused...I know...it is a feel not a description but I am curious. okay, so the horse is stretching and rounding....down around the bit? Why couldn't she just let him have that extra inch or two? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]
    \"Donuts. Is there anything they can\'t do?\"
    ~Homer



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