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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2000
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    Bumping along life\'s highway, oops, detour, welcome to Yuma, AZ.
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    1,672

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    coppelia, thank you for steering....

    You are absolutely correct in focusing back on the exposure to dressage. We do need it seen by "the masses" before we can expect the interest to follow.

    Bravo to Spruce for opening that door and with someone of International acclaim. I suppose they could have opted for someone of lesser acclaim. But from what I gather the Southern's don't do anything half way. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    "The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"
    \"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!\"



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2000
    Location
    Upper Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    3,019

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    From the October 2001 Practical Horseman:

    "USDF Needs to Grow Up" article by Janine Malone, Regional Director for USDF. This is an excerpt from the article describing some of the problems with USDF and the horse community on a whole.

    "Lose the "sour grapes" attitude!"
    Let's acknowledge expertise and be willing to learn from it. Too often, there's a culture of criticism among lower-level riders and trainers toward top riders in our sport - "S/he's no that great; my ideas are better" - instead of "I can learn from this. Nobody's perfect."

    I thought this rather aptly applied to this thread!
    Kelly Soldavin Harvest Moon Farm
    www.harvestmoonfarmpa.com



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2000
    Location
    Greenville, MI,
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    11,889

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    asking? Who do you admire as a Dressage rider? And what are your credentials as a Dressage rider? Not trying to be sarcastic, but just wondered. I am hard pressed to find any fault with Anky, or Isabelle or many of the big names, There is a German Rider Monica Theroaudescou, ack, killed the spelling that was really hard to watch ride in a Volvo world cup tape I have from 92. He legs and body were all over, and her horse was looking like he was sick of the whole thing. But that was just my opinion, She won one of the competitions. Oh and By the way Good point KAM [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    [This message was edited by Sannois on Sep. 22, 2001 at 07:39 PM.]
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2001
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    830

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    Here's another pic of Anky, with Idool.
    Personally I like her way of riding(not just because Im dutch meself ;o)). I really think this way you keep the horse sound longer than if you
    ride horses with their head always janked up. It
    spares the back of the horse. Many riders ride this way nowadays. It has proved itself to
    be a good method because in earlier days. People like Anne-Grethe Jensen did not ride this way and
    her horse Marzog was burnt up long before. And
    if you look at Bonfire and think of how happy he looks and observe his soundness and at many other horses who were ridden this way and retired, I conclude this IS a much better way. But thats just
    my own little opinion.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2001
    Location
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Posts
    232

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    I would like to say a couple of things here.
    One, I really hate that photo.

    Two, is a question to y'all. How can a horse be connected, on the bit, and using the ring of muscles if he's touching his chin to his chest like the above photo? Anky may be the most successful rider of our time, but I still think it's ugly.

    I have no "credentials", I'm not a trainer, I'm just a person who's been studying dressage for the last 15 years, and this "new" style riding has just come along in the past few. I'll stick to the "old" style thank you!
    But I have my opinion, and you just read it [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
    http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

    I\'m aging like fine wine....I\'m getting complex and fruity...



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2001
    Location
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Posts
    232

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    I see in the photo that Idool is using himself, he is stepping way up, he is free and looks light. But, he is also broken at the 4th vertebra which has always been a BIG no no in my training.

    I am a bit confused I guess, I see a horse who's "head" is being ridden, another big no no as far as the training that I have received in past years.

    But I see a horse who is going nicely "if you look past the chin to chest thing, the body looks correct".

    I guess the thing that concerns me is that Anky seems to know what and WHY she's doing this. But it looks to me like if you DON'T know how and WHY you are doing this, it could be dangerous in hands that are not as talented as Anky's.

    In other words, just because it's a useful tool "or seems to be" in an Olympic rider's hands, doesn't mean that every training level yahoo should try this technique. I think there must be more to it than meets the eye. Kinda like lunging, to do it right takes a lot of training and practice.

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]
    http://members.home.com/hagys/sabainspage.html

    I\'m aging like fine wine....I\'m getting complex and fruity...



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Sep. 22, 2001
    Posts
    26

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    I agree, Muley, the way Anky is riding in the pic doesn't look like what I've been taught. I suspect that a novice (anything less than expert)rider would run the risk of the horse not using the scalenus muscle if they tried to ride 'deep', but this horse looks as if he is using his. Perhaps the expert riders can do so correctly. I think the novice would end up with the horse pushing down at the withers instead of telescoping the neck. It looks so artificial, also. I'm a bit skeptical that it's any more than a fad, but, who knows, maybe I'm in error. I certainly don't ride at an expert level, so it's entirely possible that they're right and I'm wrong.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    May. 18, 2000
    Location
    Fuquay-Varina, NC,
    Posts
    2,159

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    KAM, CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!!

    I know Janine. She's spot on!!! I wish I knew what she has forgotten.

    We all have so much to learn. Some of these people that are being condemed, heck, they are flying over here or we're flying over there and they are WILLINGLY passing their knowledge on to us. And what are some of you guys doing, you're beating them up.



  9. #49
    sugarlump Guest

    Default

    Well Cortez you really started something didn't you? Who would have thought this would nearly take on a life of it's own.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2001
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    245

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    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] First let me say Welcome Sugarlump! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    I really wanted to head in the direction of how events like this can help us market dressage.

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] Little did I know..........

    I am a little naive, I believe.



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan. 20, 2001
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    191

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    Just try reading this discussion from an outsider's perspective. Yuk.
    KAM - thank you for posting that from PH. SO true.

    I also have watched Anky perform both years at Spruce, as well as the Celle stallions. I love watching Anky and will applaud her style and accomplishments till the cows come home.

    The Celle stallions put on a fabulous show also... But my opinion was that it was A SHOW - a demonstration and a good one at that, but it was not the highest level of dressage.

    Those matched chestnut stallions are all wearing matching tack, with highly polished gold breastcollars & other fancy trimmings. Then there are the motionless riders with their long red coats and big hats. Their turnout is flashy and flawless, and their timing in their riding superb. They did the "tricks" that got oohs and aahs from the crowd, and from what I remember, for me it wasn't the most amazing performance ever. If you took away all the glitz and glamour attached to the Celle show and put just one chestnut horse in the ring with a rider in a top hat and tails, it would have lacked sparkle and energy. Sure you would have seen a beautiful rider on a horse with a big trot and great movement, but the really collected GP movements... just not what I saw with Anky on her horses.

    Her horses were working very hard, but still made it look easy 95% of the time. And my thought is that sometimes all the movements still aren't so confirmed in the horses she brings over on the long trip to Canada to do a demo. You could tell that Junior's piaff needed work - it's not automatic for him.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> These hanoverians were soft and flexible their ears were forward (or to the side,but never back!), and their movement... WOW. I've YET to see any dressage horse that compares to those Hanoverians with movement, grace and style.... It was as though they were floating a good foot off the ground - and they were quiet and relaxed amidst all the distractions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmm... If you were there for the DuMaurier, you must have been so taken by all the big trots that you missed the one saucy stallion who was so full of himself that he broke his breastcollar? His ears were NOT always forward, and he thought the "distractions" of the crowd were just reason for him to be extra fancy! He was absolutely my favorite boy out there because he was full of personality, where some of the other studs looked like robots.

    All the top riders are only human. We can chose to learn from them, or criticize them without really understanding what we've seen. Like I said before, I will applaud Anky always, but that doesn't mean I don't see some mistakes in her performance. I don't think she's perfect. But I know that if it were me in that big ring riding for 50,000 people I'd make a lot more mistakes than that!! I'd give anything to be 1/2 as good as she is. Just my 2 cents.



  12. #52
    sugarlump Guest

    Default

    Thanks for the welcome Cortez. I believe you and Coppelia among others are spot on.
    Anky may not be the most flawless rider in the dressage universe but she is likey the most 'real' person in that universe. She deserves praise for bringing dressage to the masses



  13. #53
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2001
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    2,659

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    I too watched the Celle stallions last year and in all actuallity, yes, they were nice but they didn't blow my mind away. In fact, on Sunday they did leave one of the stallions in the barn as he had kicked one of the other ones. Anky did a great thing for the dressage world here in Alberta by coming over and doing her demos.

    From what I have seen here in Alberta, the only people who come to watch dressage are family members and competitors. Not many people just come out to watch for an afternoon like they do for jumping.



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jul. 1, 2000
    Location
    Goochland, VA
    Posts
    1,440

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    I am not being critical. But I noticed that the left front and the left hind of the Idool horse are both on the ground at the same time in this (admittedly only one instant) photograph. It looks like he's cantering. In a 3-beat canter the outside hind would be on the ground by itself, then the inside hind and outside front, then the inside front. Does this show that he's not in a pure canter? At that instant?



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
    Location
    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
    Posts
    14,174

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    Did someone say Anky has never competed against the best in the world? What alternate reality are you living in??

    Ahem, here are some of her many accomplishments:


    Worldcup Finals:

    2000: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1999: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1998: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
    1997: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1996: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1995: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1993: 9th with Gestion Cocktail
    1990: 9th with Prisco
    1989: 7th with Prisco


    World Championships:

    1998: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
    2nd team
    1994: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    2nd team
    1990: 23rd with Prisco


    European Championships:

    1999: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    2nd team
    1997: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
    2nd team
    1995: 2nd with Gestion Bonfire
    2nd team
    1991: 5th with Gestion Bonfire
    3rd team
    1989: 22nd with Prisco
    5th team


    Olympics

    2000: Gold medal with Gestion Bonfire
    Silver Medal Team
    1996: Silver Medal with Gestion Bonfire
    Silver Medal Team
    1992: 4th Gestion Bonfire
    Silver Medal Team
    1988: 26th with Prisco
    5th team


    Dutch Championships:

    2000: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1998: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1997: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1996: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1995: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1994: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1993: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1992: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1991: 1st with Gestion Bonfire
    1990: 1st with Prisco

    Titles of honour:

    2000: Rider of the century
    1993 t/m 1996 and 1998: Rider of the year
    1994: Sportswoman of the year
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jan. 20, 2001
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    191

    Default

    Thank you Velvet.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jan. 20, 2001
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    191

    Default

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2001
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    245

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    Sooooooo, Dezertrose, who is "your type of horse and rider"? Who is your ideal, your icon, the person that you look up to as an example?

    Man, I am so sad this topic has turned into Anky bashing and those who feel they must defend her. Could this be why we have such a hard time marketing dressage to sponsors and supporters? I must reiterate that Anky is a GREAT ambassador for dressage no matter how you look at it. She is fun to listen to and fun to watch. I look forward to the next time Spruce Meadows brings an international competitor in dressage back into our area! Kudos to ya Spruce no matter what the critics have to say!



  19. #59
    Join Date
    May. 18, 2000
    Location
    Fuquay-Varina, NC,
    Posts
    2,159

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    sigh

    <<<<Don't forget that, my idea of riding style is different from yours... I like a pretty hunt seat [that is effective) with the heels down, and the body extremely quiet [no floppy legs that I tend to see in the dressage world).....>>>>>

    No offense ment to hunter riders here, but, what's your point? Although GOOD dressage and GOOD hunter riding have simularities, they are different.

    mariaknowingsheshouldjustleavethisalone,banginghea donthewalltimeandtimeagain



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
    Location
    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
    Posts
    14,174

    Default

    Anky NOT a beautiful rider? Hello? I've watched enough jumper riders over the year to know a beautiful seat when I see one, and it belonged on Conrad Homfeld. I also know a gorgeous style in dressage, and that belongs to Anky--you just need to be more well rounded in your education of riding abilities.

    And there is NO WAY to buy a World or Olympic top position. You have to have talent. You cannot be a passenger in dressage and be at the very top. Not ever gonna happen, no way, no how. Maybe in the jumpers it can happen (I didn't think so, but maybe the horse can overcome the riders lack of ability--you can enlighten me on this one), but in dressage there is no longer this hole. You must be able to ride, or you won't win.

    Sure, money plays a part, and getting in front of the international judges help, but the competition is very, very tight at the top (because they all have the money, the horse and the talent) and she's on the top.

    Your opinion is, at best, misguided. And that's not my opinion, that's based on the facts I listed.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



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