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  1. #41
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    Without being painted as a person who drugs horses to show them, or advocates such actions, I can't help but think this is a grayer area than either camp wants to address...

    When we talk about the ELISA test, EVEN with an FEI standard, one must understand how small a level of metabolite this test detects. I fully accpet that it is a bad thing to give banamine and bute to get a horse to the ring. I also want some degree of understanding that IF I administered banamine and bute to a horse during a bout of uveitis, then showed him (drug free) three weeks later, that I wouldn't be in danger of losing my right to show in an AHSA show. Having a defined standard is a big difference from expanding the level of drugs permitted in a horse, unless what we are saying is we should never, ever, ever give our horses drugs again. For any reason. And I know that is not what we are saying. I think that is a pretty reasonable request, and one that does not endanger the lives of show horses.

    I also wonder about the FEI policy in light of such medical advances as gastroguard, or what if there WAS a medicine that kept a uveitis or EPM horse from deteriorating? Are these really performance enhancing concepts?
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  2. #42
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    when are MSM, and glucosamine products going to be considered "contribands"????

    Now I AM going to go read the article!!! (while still covered in snow)



  3. #43
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    DMK, I agree with you on the levels. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the specific tests, so I cannot offer anything but opinions.

    There has to be a definable difference between therapeutic levels given to a horse even five days ago and a level to get an 'off' horse to the ring given 12 hours ago.



  4. #44
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    I really didn't see anything wrong (inflammatory) in SS's statemants.

    VS (Snowbird) just keep pushing your issues!!!! We need more people like you out there, but remember to breathe!!! It is a veeeeeery BIG mountain to climb, with trees that have DEEP roots. Being "politically correct" is often a hard thing to swallow...

    I do agree with SS on the issue of "what if your horse colics 3 weeks before a competition, and the trace is found with legal amounts of other chemicals". Being someone that grew up when unlimited amounts of Bute/Banamine were acceptable, I don't condone it, but that time has changed... I get nervous if I have to give a gram of bute to a horse that has shown on hard ground---not unsound, I just feel sorry for the poor sucker---I'd take some Advil myself!!!


    JMHO



  5. #45
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    I have never been such I'm afraid. I've thought about it, and even tried it once or twice but like being anonymous it's just not me. I do have opinions that may not be mainstream or convenient.
    But, I don't know that what's "right" is ever convenient.

    You missed my point I think, what I said was that IF a horse had a medical problem certifies by a vet a temporary or permanent card would be issued certified by that vet. So if there was a condition which required medication and the horse was off the medication but MIGHT test positive this card in advance would eliminate the violation.

    I know that there might be dishonest vets but I can't imagine one who would jeopardize his license for the purpose of an "attitude adjuster" on an otherwise young healthy horse.

    If it was a matter of correcting a lameness that too should be on the card. My question would be if this process existed would all the horses that show, be on something with a card, or would we have horses that actually competed as they were.



  6. #46
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    This is not a further comment on SS but Snowbird are you really suggesting I need a card from my vet for every bute tab I dispense?

    If I had the vet out for every little scrape and what not I wouldn't have any money to show. I guess that is your point. We'll all be so poor from vet bills for needless visits that the only people who could show will be the wealthy amateurs who are married to vets.

    And as if those with the financial means still won't find a way to make sure all their horses are lifetime card carrying bute recipients.

    I can see horse sale ads where you will pay more for horses with a "medication" card.

    Laugh and chuckle but that's how it would pan out.



  7. #47
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    I shared your chuckle, havaklu! Hmmm.. $35 call charge to administer $0.35 worth of medication. No thank you - I'll take up another sport!!!

    And my vet would probably ring my neck if I called him out for that Sunday 5pm colic that one of my critters is so fond of executing 3-4 times a year. All three of us (me, vet & pony) understand that all it needs is 10 cc's of banamine and some lost sleep on my part as I follow up with 2 night checks (the vet and I are pretty sure this is a plot on the pony's part to amuse himself).

    And of course, there are a finite amount of vets to go around. I'd be unhappy if a vet couldn't get to me ASAP when I have an emergency because they are spending all their time attending to some show horse that the owner/barn manager is perfectly capable of treating (and trust me, when I call up and say it is an emergency, it is an emergency of the highest order).
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  8. #48
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    I agree with Elizabeth..There are more polite ways to agree to disagree. SBS is to entrenched in the system. We need new blood and a new broom sweeps clean.
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  9. #49
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    I must have missed the points in the interview.I thought Ms Schoelkoph REPEATEDLY praised the AHSA program for drugs.I am confused as to why she was attacked by snowbird and others for her statements about the AHSA.then the comments got way off the subject. Snowbird seems to have a problem with those who are more financially blessed than we are.It seems as if Snowbird is against the elected reps on the zone,could it be sour grapes that he/she is not on the zone?-Our zone committee serves us well and the Zone show is a highlight for us to attend.I am suspect that when A.Balch appoints Snowbird to a committee that his/her position will change-it happens almost everytime.Appoint the complainers and they will shut up.



  10. #50
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    The complainers do not get on AHSA committees. Those who do get things accomplished. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]



  11. #51
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    In answer to your post, yes they do{get appointed}
    and no they don,t{get things accomplished
    ].Iknow two who raised hell and got appointed in the last three years and they now care more about the committee that about their causes. Watch the Snowbird "committee appointment" campaign progress.Then Snowbird will become "very understanding" about the AHSA and ask us to be patient and supportive.



  12. #52
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    Comment first: I know SS from her days showing AO with Rodney, and I always respected her views and thought she was very intelligent. I thought her comments in the interview were interesting and she obviously feels strongly about them, her right. From my readings, I don't think the NHJC is any more forward thinking and open-minded than the AHSA, a huge dinosaur that needs a complete overhaul. I totally agree with SS and DMK's comment on the need to establish what constitutes a trace, non-performance enhancing amount, and what is performance altering. Don't kid yourself that there aren't vets out there who would sign off on a card in a minute for a big client. And it would put a tremendous burden on the vets and the exhibitors to have to obtain a card each and every time a medication is administered.

    Question: Why on earth has reserpine come up again, 20+ years after nearly everyone in the business went down because of this drug? Has it been unused for so long that they stopped testing for it??

    Laurie
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  13. #53
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    BRAVO well said.But I don't understand.Certainly the AHSA doesn't charge exhibitors with a medication that doesn't influence a horses performance-I can't believe it !!



  14. #54
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Watch the Snowbird "committee appointment" campaign progress.Then Snowbird will become
    "very understanding" about the AHSA and ask us to be patient and supportive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If you knew me better you would know that I have never worried about being politically correct. Nor, do I envy those with more money. Obviously, I am quite confortable with my 70 acre farm. What I do resent is that those who choose not to be a gypsy living their lives at 5 day horse shows are somehow lesser competitors to be relegated to the garbage heap as not very important.

    I don't think people should be prevented from being competitive because they prefer to sleep in their own bed every night. And, if I love my farm why should I spend my time in motels and tack rooms on the road? If the system prevents anyone from qualifying for the prestigious shows unless they choose to leave home I think that is unfair.

    If I wanted to do that, I could! and I could afford it. That doesn't happen to be my choice of a life style. Why would I want to be away from my home and my critters for 6 months at a time?

    Yes, SS is pleased that the trace levels have been increased as per the demands of the so-called "International Horsemens Committee". That in the face of the preferences, beliefs and warnings of the Veterinary committee that it was harmful for the horses.

    Yes, she believes in the contamination theories which seem only to happen at hunter/jumper shows.

    Yes, Linda Allan and George Morris both said our team would do better if they had more shows under the strict regulation of the FEI standards.

    Yes,SS does not agree and believes that horses should be medicated and "assisted" as a matter of kindness to the horse.

    I personally can not conceive of the logic that at a horse show and in hunters particularly where the judging is based on performance and soundness that chemicals can be used to alter both to any degree.

    No you wouldn't have to call the vet for every bute tablet unless you are competing in a horse show. If the condition is a chronic one then it should be certified "If you are going to compete". I would rather have people admit their use than to continue to keep the use underground, unless they are "caught".

    Certainly, it is an idea but only one off the top of my head to try and put legitimate use of drugs into perspective. If you really believe that a horse requires this medication for the good of the horse and not the rider,owner or trainer then let's put it on the table.

    To put this in perspective, if the USET became the NGB or even if the AHSA stays as NGB will we have a double standard at the shows for competition?

    If you are riding for $25,000 or more you have to meet one standard and if you are doing it for no money then you are required to compete against medicated horses.

    Does that sound good to you?



  15. #55
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    I honestly thought it was an ok interview .I am not sure I agree with the drug issue .The rest I might think is ok.I still have some problems with ahsa/nhjc deal but at least she seems to be up front about it .
    Brilyntrip



  16. #56
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    She is definitely up front and in your face, and I too may disagree but I respect that honesty more than those who lie and pretend to be what they're not. So I do agree for that I do respect SS. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]



  17. #57
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    So you won't play a game that has been going on for decades (to get what you want), and then you publicly bash SS, and then agree with her... Hmmmmm...

    I just see some hypocracy here...

    I admire you for your ideas, and your dedication, but you have contradicted yourself several times--you may be the bold/outspoken type, but there's a time to be like that.

    PS-I'm not some snot-nosed junior trying to get you going, but I've been in this industry long enough to know that sometimes you have to sneak in the back door to get something to work... JMHO



  18. #58
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    While I disagreed with her completely, I do think that at least she is up front and in your face which is better the rest who are devious and manipulative but hide it under a false facade.

    Now if that's a compliment, OK! I can live with that.



  19. #59
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    Reserpine came to the front again because of STUPIDITY....One trainer brings in a "wonder supplement" that is "not testable" and it really WORKED!!! Did anyone even think of researching the "supplement" to see exactly what was in there and was it safe ??? NO..Just give it to your horse not knowing WHAT was in it...Then they were tested and the all natural miracle supplement contained a pig TQ related to reserpine..They were STUPID they got caught with their pants down and then they walked. Fair and equal justice under the law. If any of us nobodys tried that trick we would be suspendended, fined and vilified. If you are important enough and you will impact the horse show in the wallet, you are slapped on the wrist and told please to not do that again...please...
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  20. #60
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    I have heard that they were assured by the manufacturer that there was no reserpine in the supplement. I have to feel sympathetic with the hearing committee if this is so.

    I don't think any of us would run out to the local lab abd have it tested for ourselves. We are inclined to believe the statements of the manufacturer. So, then the hearing committee was probably justified for a 1st shot.



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