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  1. #401
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Dressager...do straight on side and front shots and a solar view if he isn't in pads.

    Bensmom....did the AAA guy correctly balance and align the tires as he applied them? http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif

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  2. #402
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2000
    Location
    charlottesville, Va
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    2,613

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    Two of my guys have the set back shoes. One is a navicular horse who was nearly crippled with eggbars and eggbars and pads, etc. Finally read something on a shoeing site, and took ot my long suffering farrier who turned this guy into an almost sound horse in two weeks. I had spent about 3 years on other methods and was considering putting him down. This was about 6 years ago. He's 29 now and still does a beginner lesson once a week.
    My young horse tends to trip over his feet constantly unless he is trimmed fairly short and given a set back shoe.
    My farrier though does the toe, not radically cut back, but shaped and rounded so that it does not compromise the hoof wall.

    "I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

    Shoulders back, hands down, leg ON!

    http://mellvinshouse.blogspot.com/



  3. #403
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
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    1,987

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    Mellsmom - what was the treatment for the older navicular horse that "fixed" him? We had a mare like that who wasn't totally cripled, but fairly lame, all her life. Eggbars and pads on her, even had her nerved once or twice.

    She's still kicking around happily on a farm with some goats and sheep and a pony. I heard they pulled her shoes and shes "sound".... I want to check in on her to see if its true!

    martha

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  4. #404
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Martha, there is a good chance that she is "sound". Are they riding her...pasture sound is one thing, riding sound another. But, it is not uncommon to return "navicular" horses to riding soundness either...especially using NB or similar principles. The majority of navicular cases are really just some sort of heel pain caused by unbalanced feet or generally contraction. High heels play a role too. With a return to proper hoof form and function (some believe that circulation also plays a role) the heel pain subsides and the foot becomes correctly weighted. The horse moves off sound...sometimes in 1-2 trims. It does, of course, take closer to a year to get the foot in optimal condition so that the horse stays riding sound...sometimes 2 years.

    My husband's first therapeutic case was a referal when he was still in the last weeks of school. The horse had been standing lame in a stall for 8 years. He was donated to a therapeutic riding center and hubby was donating trims as part of his education. Within a couple of trims, this horse was pasture sound. Within a couple of more was able to work an hour/day in a flat arena. Later, he was riding sound for all day arena work. He then moved on to light trail work as well. He was retired to our house and a year later we pulled his shoes. We videoed him with and without shoes and saw no difference between the two. He was then shod in concussion reducing shoes for light trail work and some kid lessons until he died. Although it took about 4 years to get him barefoot sound, we now know that it was hubby's inexperience that slowed progress, not the method. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

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  5. #405
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
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    Well, her new retirement family is new to "horses" although old to livestock and farming and VERY concientous about health and happiness. Casey was "sound" in the way an arthitic old horse is - stiff, short, sometimes a little head bob. Needed to keep moving to stay sound enough, but never 100%.

    The mare had shoes all her life - through the navicular diagnosis, etc. When the new mom asked me my opinion on pulling her expensive shoes, I said "go for it!, but expect her to be foot sore for a long time...." and I handed her some bute. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    Little bitty kids were going to be walking her arond on the property and otherwise she just lives with goats.

    I heard through the grapevine that she is sound now - but whether that's true or not I don't know - if they're beginners they might not know what sound is. However, I am very interested to see her and find out if pulling the shoes did the trick, it would be some nice anecdotal evidence for my bag of tricks.

    Whether they have access to a "good farrier" is another question....

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

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  6. #406
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Whether they have access to a "good farrier" is another question....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's another good issue. From what I have seen, if the horse has been in pain for a considerable period, even if the trim isn't the best, just a change in treatment (generally barefoot) allows the foot to rehab itself somewhat. This doesn't neccessarily make the horse "sound", but the improvement is generally so dramatic that the horse appears sound to the untrained eye.

    Here's a sad founder story for ya....
    A horse was in such pain, that it walked backwards and dragged its front feet behind as it went. This lasted with "convention" treatment (actually some of the worst trimming/shoeing I have ever seen) for over a year. [Insert personal comment about quality of life here http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/sigh.gif] The horse was put in a sling, shoes were pulled, and trimmed in a "natural" manner...it walked off "sound". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
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  7. #407

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    Hi,

    I am real need of advice. We had a mare in foal have laminitis with some rotation on only one front foot.

    She is 7 months along in pregnanacy. The vets believe it has been caused by the dramatically cold weather we recently had.

    It has been 4 weeks and we have tried medications from the vet and some different types of herbs and she is very slowly showing signs of improvement but still very sore. X-rays show she has stopped rotating.

    What do we do to help her now? They first wanted us to tape foam to her feet but that was diffcult. I read a lot about the natural trim but our farrier was insistent on putting shoes and pads on her because her soles are thin. I just don't like the shoes idea because her frog and hoof are off the ground. I was thinking of pulling the shoes and putting a boot on like Old Macs to help her until her sole grows.

    We have also started her on Farriers Formula to help speed up the growth.

    Our vet said it is possible to use corrective trimming/shoeing to help correct the coffin position as the hoof grows but our farrier says no way.

    Any advice?



  8. #408
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
    Location
    Central NY
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    Oooo....my really fav subject! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif

    First, in my enthusiasm about the subject, I don't want to overlook the difficulties that you must be going through and want to say that this is one of the toughest "diseases" that horseowners encounter.

    The first step is to get her comfortable. Taping foam to her feet is the best step...especially if she is barefoot. I am assuming that you are not using bute? If you are, please do not use it long term (2-3 weeks max). Long term use will actually encourage more lamintis in some horses as well as prevent healing in all horses. Check out the foam installation download at Hope for Soundness. Although a pia, this will be the better thing to do for the moment. When she is sound enough to move about comfortably, then you can boot her in Macs or something similar. Just remember that boots must be used short term/daily. The horse can't live in them or you will get problems.

    Exercise is also important...especially for a mare heavy in foal. She needs movement, but not forced. Whatever is within her realm of comfort. If she can be outside without other horses pushing her around, that is best. Also some brisk handwalking is good...up to 20 min/day. But, remember not to force her. If there is another, not too aggressive horse to turn her out with...one that will encourage her to move, but not push her around, that is best.

    She will most likely abscess, if you soak her feet daily in epsom salts or apple cider vinegar (about 10 mins/2x) that will speed recovery from the abscess. Also, beware that she may abscess again after that...so further lameness may be from that.

    The key is in teamwork. You need a farrier, vet, and yourself to work together closely and beable to discuss and agree on issues. It appears that you already have a negative minded farrier...as well as one that doesn't understand the mechanics of founder or healing it. Returning the coffin bone to its natural orientation is the easy part. It only requires applying techniques that address optimal form and function. Keeping the toe wall parallel with the coffin bone and keeping the coffin bone in alignment with the ground. That is all that is neccessary (for the basics). If these two things are followed, the foot will recover and the horse will generally be sound. There are other things that need tweaking and addressing, but that is the basic principle. You need to find a farrier that is open-minded enough to attempt to fix the horse. Check out the BB and farrier finder at Hope for Soundness. There is also a trim tutorial to help you understand the basic principles.

    The other issue is that you need to discover and eliminate the underlying cause of the laminitis. You should have bloodwork drawn to check for potential metabolic disorders like insulin resistance, thyroid, or mineral imbalances such as selinium and vit E deficiency. This is the most difficult and time consumeing part. You may never discover the underlying problem. But, if you don't, it could very well happen again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/cry.gif

    Check out the pics I posted earlier about how the coffin bone sits in a high heeled horse. This is similar to the rotation in a foundered horse. See how "easy" it was for the coffin bone to be "derotated" and why it happened. The two, as well as some instances of club feet are identical in cause and "treatment" from the aspect of the trim. If you are worried about ground contact with the frog and such, then you could look into EDSS system (Hope for Soundness) but, if the underlying trim isn't appropriate, then the application of the shoe will not "fix" anything. Also, if the farrier doesn't understand the method of application, it will fail. http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/sigh.gif

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
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  9. #409
    Join Date
    Dec. 1, 2000
    Location
    Presque Isle, ME, USA
    Posts
    29

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    Foundered Horses (long)

    I don't have any pictures, but would appreciate some input. I'll try to take some this week and post them soon.

    I have a TB gelding who's foundered twice (botched farrier jobs), the first time he had rotation/sinking in all 4. The second time he only rotated in 1 front foot, and thankfully no others.

    He has a very underrun heel on his LF, but the RF has a decent amount/height of heel (weird because this is the worse foot). He's barefoot behind (with no problems other than a small flare which is always there) and is sound on those feet.

    He's shod in frog support pads (to keep some pressure on his frog/sole area) and Natural Balance shoes. This seems to be working, but his front feet aren't were I would like them to be (still pretty unbalanced). Its been about 6 months with this treatment plan...and while he's sound (the most important thing), I'd like to see his feet looking better.

    He has rockered/rolled/beveled out toes....and we've also been cutting them pretty short in an effort to get his heels up. He's also in a size 3 (soon to be 4) in order to give him heel support.

    Does this sound totally off the mark, or should I stick it out since he's sound and happy; even though his feet still don't look great? Like I said, I'll try to get some pictures scanned so you have a better idea of what they look like.
    ~katelyn~



  10. #410
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
    Location
    Central NY
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    Hi Katelyn....
    It would be best if you can post some pics, but I'll answer your questions as best I can without. Please include a sole shot even though he is in pads.

    First comment I would make is that from my experience, a bad trim doesn't generally founder a horse....there is only one type trim that I have heard of that commonly founders horses and I'm sure your farrier was not applying that trim. I think that you need to get bloodwork and look for underlying problems (undiscovered disease, liver problems, insulin resistance, and/or thyroid problems). Have you done any dietary changes since the founder? What other things have you changed in his management?

    Second, treating rotation is one thing....treating a sinker is another. The problem is if the attachment separtated high enough up the hoof wall...near the coronary...then gaining a new, sound attachment that high up is a real bear! The new laminae will want to "stretch" itself to reach the dropped coffin bone. And, it won't "unstretch"...the coffin bone will slowly have to be reattached by shorter and shorter laminae each new growth. That could take several years. I have seen improvement in my own mare in 2 years, but we still have a long way to go. I have even heard of good reattachment in 2-3 years...but, that was told to me, I didn't see it.

    Often the problem with sinkers is that they keep suffering small bouts of laminitis. These bouts often go undetected, especially if the trim is correct. But, each bout weakens the laminae and lets the foot sink a little lower
    each time. Generally, these horses have metabolic disorders that are the underlying cause of the laminitis. Sometimes these metabolic issues are never discovered or resolved.

    The final thing is, if he is sound, and you see continuous improvement in the way his feet look...judge the new growth at the top of the foot, not the old growth (can't do anything about that)....then you are probably progressing as well as can be expected. Is his white line getting tighter each time? This is an excellent way to judge what is happening inside. As the coffin bone resumes it orifinal position, the typical foundered foot stretched white line should start shrinking. I don't think that 6 months is enough time to see if this is working (in this particular case)...and I would suggest that because he is "sound and happy", things are working. Also, a size 3 or 4 is a good size foot, so he probably has good form, just bad looking old growth on the outside. Keep checking the growth nearest the coronary and see if it is smoother and the horn tubules straighter. If not, then either the horse has chronic laminitis that you are not detecting, or the method is not working.

    Hope this helps...waiting for your pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

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  11. #411
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2002
    Location
    magnolia, texas, usa
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    458

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    Wow, great thread. I just read all of it at once. My question is pretty simple. Is it acceptable for your horse's to occasionally bleed after they get reset? There is more to the story, but I'll get to it tomorrow.
    Thanks,
    Meghan



  12. #412
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    I'll reserve my answer until I hear the whole story, but....I would generally question any bleeding (of the foot) that is a result of trimming. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif

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  13. #413
    Join Date
    Dec. 1, 2000
    Location
    Presque Isle, ME, USA
    Posts
    29

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    Thanks slb...

    More info on the farrier. He had undetected White line for a while (had a resection, almost all the hoof wall was taken off) and typical bad feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif It wasn't so much one botched trim, but more of a continual 6 month thing (stupid me, I didn't know). Its a long story, but my vet, the vets at Rochester Equine, a new farrier there, etc all said thats what it was from. I'm sure you can imagine how terrible I felt......I had no idea.

    We too all thought of a metabolic/underlying problem. Actually, my vet thought it was Cushings or insulin problems (only 9 yrs old)...but all the blood work came back clear (did each test 2 times).

    The new hoof growth does look better, so as his foot grows out I assume it will look better as it grows out.

    The first time he foundered was 2 years ago, and the rotation/sinking was pretty much put back into the correct position. So he really only has rotation on the front 2 now...but his coffin bone is sitting directly on his sole.

    He eats a lot less grain (was an OTTB), and also isn't allowed on grass (most recent founder was because barn workers put him on a new lush paddock for the entire day after being on a dry lot).

    Thanks for the answers, I'll work on the pictures.

    ~katelyn~
    ~katelyn~



  14. #414
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
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    I think SLB should be salaried for this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif What's your going rate SLB?!

    I need to settle in and really read the latest info! Browsing from work doesn't do it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    martha

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
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  15. #415
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    Dec. 16, 2001
    Location
    Ventura County, CA
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    Update: I took the pictures this evening and will upload them to my site tomorrow.

    Dressager
    No two smart men ever agree on anything -Harry Truman
    You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith



  16. #416
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2002
    Posts
    2,272

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    I don't have anything to offer on the founder questions (thank goodness we've never had to deal with that - knock on wood!) but have another one.

    My 20-y-o Arab has always been sickle hocked and had trouble with long toes and no heels behind, pretty much no matter what anyone did. This last trim our farrier must have decided it was time to take a chance. He took his toes WAY back, so it appears that there's about an inch of foot ahead of the tip of his frog, and voila -- he stands under himself like a normal horse! Part of me is still holding my breath, because messing with a sound 20-year-old horse carries its own risks, but he seems bright and perky and not at all sore. So my question is --

    His front feet appear to follow the 1/3-2/3 shape described above in this thread. That 1/3 represents quite a bit more than an inch ahead of where my untrained eye estimates the tip of the coffin bone to be. His hind feet look more like my other gelding's feet when we were in the middle of reconstruction last year -- an inch or so of foot ahead of the tip of the frog, which is much much less than 1/3 of the foot. Why not do the fronts to match the hinds? it's not like he has much for heels in front. will the hinds reshape themselves to create that 1/3-2/3 ratio if he ever grows a heel?

    I may see my farrier tonight and I'll certainly ask him these questions, but that 1/3-2/3 thing vs. 1" ahead of the coffin bone is still bothering me.



  17. #417
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2000
    Location
    charlottesville, Va
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    MCMIV-

    Well, you know my guy had heel pain as well. He was crippled in eggbars. We also had the rubber injected under pads for him. I was ready to put him down as it would take us 4 grams of bute a day to get him half way sound.
    Then, we tried the set back shoe with the rounded toe. No bute needed, nothing. He's 100% sound at the walk. He's arthritic a bit and needs to be kept in work to stay fluid, but he is about 80% sound. He goes in SMB's in the front every ride and has for years. For him, this combination works. He also jumps a bit, up to 18 inches or so when he's feeling good. He's 29 now. Foundation QH bloodlines. If we don't work him some he gets depressed. In fact I need to get on him this weekend and putter aroundx some. He has spent the last 10 years teaching beginners how to ride.

    "I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

    Shoulders back, hands down, leg ON!

    http://mellvinshouse.blogspot.com/



  18. #418
    Join Date
    Dec. 3, 2002
    Location
    Maine, USA
    Posts
    139

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    I don't want to be a pest, but please don't forget to check out Zephyr's photos, that I posted on page 20. When y'all get a chance, that is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif (I know you're busy.)

    http://community.webshots.com/user/sharon_kenney1359

    http://www.ZEGifts.com



  19. #419
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
    Location
    Central NY
    Posts
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    Hi, Zephyr's Mom...we didn't forget you...I have lots to say, but would like to have some of the others comment before I do.

    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
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  20. #420
    Join Date
    Dec. 3, 2002
    Location
    Maine, USA
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