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  1. #221
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    Jul. 12, 2002
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    Ahh..... I see. Now Cassie said that she thought they should be growing perpendicular to the ground. Is this right? It seems to me like they should be growing at the same angle the pastern is...sort of like the hoof angle should match the pastern.....

    Is that right? I will observe tubules tomorrow at the barn. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    martha

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
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  2. #222
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    I think that the confusion might lie in what is typically depicted in illustrations verses what is seen in photos. In illustrations, typically the tubules are drawn straight up and down...perpendicular to the ground plane. However, you are correct, they should more closely resemble the angle of the pastern...but we don't wnat to get to carried away with that either because the pastern angle is a variable...not a fixed structure...and can be changed as a result of changes in hoof form and alignment. I think that if they were growing perpendicular to the ground, then that would most likely be more like a club or coon foot...while the more oval the foot becomes (as evidenced in LT/LH or underrun heels) the more parallel to the ground they become.
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  3. #223
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    Oct. 29, 2002
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    Ooops, should have been more specific again... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    Perpendicular to the ground as viewed from the front, not from the side



  4. #224
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    Ahh yes, excellent clarification!

    martha

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  5. #225
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    May. 2, 2001
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    Martha is soooo cool!!

    She made me two new composites of feet -- I love being able to see them like this.

    First, I'll post Bear. This is the horse that has been lame for about 3 years. The vet shot films of his feet today to compare to the ones we had.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #226
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    And, next, I'll post my little TB's feet. He has a bowed tendon on the left front, and an arthritic fetlock on the right, both I believe from having his feet with waaayy too long toes and no support behind long pasterns.

    In order to work on his angles on the front feet, my terrific farrier built him some steel wedge bars that give him the correct angle without crushing the heels. Let me know what you guys think . . .

    (edited to say that I'm working on getting the pic up -- help, Martha, it says its too big!)

    [This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 06, 2003 at 04:00 PM.]
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  7. #227
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    Erm! UH OH.. HOld on!

    HOLD ON AGAIN. Jeez... Ben's pics were like 389K! This should work. :P hrmph.

    martha

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #228
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    OK, so my question about Buzz -

    It seems like his angles/heel legnth are different left to right. However, it's almost like the front and back match each other, just not left to right....

    does that make sense? Is this my imagination?

    martha

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  9. #229
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    Martha! You are a genius! (I think I shrunk Ben's feet pics a tiny bit at home -- I don't have that software on this computer, but you fixed it!)

    Oh-kay, people! We can catch the sunniflax thread. You've got two new sets of pics.

    Discuss. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    Libby (thanks guys, this is great stuff!)
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  10. #230
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    Hmm -- I don't know that I've ever noticed a big discrepancy between the fronts in real life. I'll run out there now and check and maybe re-shoot those feet -- it might have been the camera angle?

    Good eye!

    Libby
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  11. #231
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    Feb. 5, 2002
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    The one thing I notice right away is that both horses' coronary bands aren't parallel to the ground - from the front view, both left fronts, and Bear's right front, are high to the inside. You can tell that Buzz is more sore on his left front because his right front is bigger and more splayed. I'd love to see what their soles look like. I'd be willing to bet that Bear's frogs point in towards midline a bit.

    I work with a therapeutic riding program and we get a lot of horses with various minor lamenesses and feet that need work. It's fun to look at what we get when they walk off the trailer and predict where they're sore from the way their feet have adapted to their owies. It's also fun to see how much they can improve once their feet get back in shape. Let's hope you have the same sort of luck with your boys.

    We should post follow-ups to this thread in about a year so we can see some of these guys with heels!



  12. #232
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    OK...let's get this show on the road http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    Bensmom...is the medial lateral balance off on Bear or is it just the pic...that's the foot when viewed from the front...is the hairline parallel to the ground or does it tilt?

    Opps...sorry got sidetracked and took a long time to post...betsyk posted the same question.
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
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  13. #233
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    Okay, it was raining so hard I didn't get to take any more pictures, but I will check the medial/lateral balance tomorrow. I hadn't noticed just how bad Bear's was -- his foot is shaved there for the coffin joint block, so it is really apparent. I have noticed that the picture distorts somewhat, so I'll check in real life and see what we've got.

    One thing we have is a diagnoses on him now.

    It is still tentative and we aren't sure how advanced it is, but the vet has diagnosed Navicular.

    So, with that in mind, take a look at his shoeing job, keeping in mind that the farrier didn't know he was Navicular and tell me what you'd change. This is the set of pics that just has the front feet.

    Thanks!

    Libby
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  14. #234
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    OK...you should know my disclaimer by now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

    This is Bear...right?
    No wonder he came back with a navicular diagnosis.

    His toes are way too long resulting in the foot being too far forward in general. Heels, of course, are underrun. Pads are probably hindering...crushing...rather than helping. I'm guessing that he is contracted in the heels and that if we saw his whole leg, he has a broken axis...that's probably why he is in wedges.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif Are you looking for optimal treatment (= $$) or are you looking for pointers to get this done economically? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif
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  15. #235
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    (arrghhh, I managed to lose my whole reply!)

    The answer to fixing it as far as $$ is concerned is somewhere in between? He isn't going to continue trying to be a showhorse, but they would like to get him sound and comfortable enough for the older daughter to teach a few lessons on and to perhaps be 1/2 leased to someone to do small local stuff. He will remain in my care, though, since Buzz irritates every other horse he's been out with until they beat him up. Bear is his best friend. (See pic below)

    We are supposed to take him Monday for another procedure that involves injecting dye to get a better handle on exactly what's wrong with him. The vet wants to meditate on the shoeing changes, but you can bet there will be some -- he wasn't happy and says the left foot is worse with the heels underrun. He shot the x-rays of that foot as well, just to see how bad the axis is.

    The lameness is pretty slight -- not even lame enough for the vet to block yesterday, so the vet thinks that with good management, he can continue to have a useful life.

    So, since John wanted me to throw a few navicular horses on the trailer with the underrun heels, there must be a good way to fix horses like this -- so what would you do?

    Also what do y'all think of Buzz's wedge shoes - the design of which is to encourage the heel to grow down enough that the wedge would be no longer necessary. You can see 'em a little from the side, and I'll try to get solar views today if the rain stops.

    Thanks!

    Libby
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #236
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    Betsy -- that is a very interesting observation about Buzz's soreness. He is actually more sore right front lately because that is where his djd is in his fetlock. But, the left is where the bowed tendon is and though it was done some time ago, I guess we'd still see the effects of him carrying the weight on the other leg in the hoof as it grows out. Interesting.

    This pic is right after I got him a year ago.
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  17. #237
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    Hmm.. we had a mare diagnosed navicular. As a 5 year old she was schooling 4' courses and competing on the A circuit and as a 6 year old she was dead lame.

    Hindsight is 20/20, right?

    Well.... some stupid vet called it "pedalostitis", give her isoxoprin.

    She remained lame for months, maybe years before we met our vet of today. He found that chiropractically she had a real twisty pelvis and of course that could blamed on being jumped hard as a youngster.

    On top of that she had underrun heels, really bad ones.

    After more years of nerve blocks, lameness exams, supplements and meds, she was finally diagnosed with navicular syndrome. Clean xrays, but all the symptoms were met.

    Maybe if we had been more knowledgeable and had a better farrier it could have been fixed while she was still young! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    Shes now like 20, and retired on a farm with 2 sheep and 4 goats and a lot of chickens. She's pretty happy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    We had her nerved at least once. She was a beginner lesson horse, and leased to many a small pony-clubber. The nerving really seemed to help alleviate some of her ouchies.

    I think navicular is mostly manageable and maybe even reversable - it is a "syndrome" not an "end". I hope Bear is ok. :/

    martha

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  18. #238
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    Nov. 16, 2000
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    Concord, NH
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    Finally I have pictures and got them scanned of Clancy's feet.

    They were taken about 1 week after he'd had them pulled for winter. Usually he goes in rocker toes in front, and I posted way back about my hind clip issues.

    He's a 17h TB, and knock on wood he is sound.

    I'll start with the front view of the fronts. The cracks start at the coronary band, one he's "always" had, and the other appeared shortly after he hit a jump rail (I noticed paint on the corornary band).
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  19. #239
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    Here are the side views of both front feet - I could not get him to stand on any board other than this one, which slopes down. So his left front doesn't REALLY poind downward.
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  20. #240
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    And the hind feet -

    He travels very close behind (don't know if that has anything to do with feet) and his sacrum can get out of whack causing a weaker left side when he's in need of a chiro visit.
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