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  1. #201
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    You have to be kidding! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif
    From my experience, I have seen some of the worst looking feet taken back to good form and function in just a year. This is simply a matter of correct trimming. This is of course a generalization, and I expect that somewhere there is a horse or two that simply can't be fixed...but so far, we haven't found one yet.
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  2. #202
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    Nov. 28, 2000
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    Ontario,Canada
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    Bensmom, tell ya what, I'll send ya down a wack of money and you follow that vet and lameness expert around and buy up all them poor footed,underrun heals, never gonna save 'em horses, for cash, just ahead of the meat guy.(See if ya can get a few of them thar navicular ones as well.) when you get a trailler load or my money runs out, I'll slip down and pick them up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif
    What a great business we are in. Experts creating opportunities every time ya turn around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif
    Ya all know what a expert is???
    An "ex" is a has been, and a "pert" is a squirt under pressure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    Is the heat too much down there or what???
    Regards John



  3. #203
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2000
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    Ontario,Canada
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    Bensmon, another thing, Just had another look at Ben's feet and they look really good.
    The shoeing job looks like a top notch professional job.
    And how did Martha set up your pictures???
    Thats a great way to present them.
    Regards John



  4. #204
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Come on HS....I want in on this too...you can't get all the good deals http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  5. #205
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    Nov. 28, 2000
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    Ontario,Canada
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    Hey babe, it's a tough world out there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif
    But there's plenty to go around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif
    Regards John



  6. #206
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Hey guys...come on, just a little more to go to catch the sunnie thread. Yuuu can dooo it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  7. #207
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    May. 2, 2001
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    Tallahassee, FL
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    Hey guys, we can catch the sunniflax thread!! Especially once you get a look at the problem I'm gonna bring you pics of tomorrow . . .

    But, back to my beast. Thanks for the compliments on his feet, and you may be sorry you asked, as this is one of my favorite subjects, but slb asked:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> From the sounds of it and what I see in these pics...you must have seen great improvement in a very short time? I would like to hear what you have seen and what has happened from this trim. Has his gait changed? Has his behavior/attitude changed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is the abbreviated version &lt;g&gt; In Fall 2001, I'm tired of this horse not holding an adjustment behind. He has always worn his feet more on the outsides of the hinds, and my farrier had been doing extended heels or trailers and it hadn't fixed it. So, he decides to allow the feet to "be themselves" and bam, I have a real pain problem in his hips. Chiro every four weeks and acupuncture once a week keeps him in work, but he's bucking really badly at the canter.

    Make vet appt for soundness check, have both trusted vets present. Basically do throrough clinical exam on hind end. Told that I have a training problem and to teach the horse not to buck. Well, I knew better, so I made a deal. If I could be the first client to get the horse computer balanced, and could do the hinds, I would spend a month spanking him for bucking.

    So, next reset, we shoot the x-rays, and hang out at the clinic to see what we've got. Vet offers apology to owner as x-rays showed a very serious "tilt" to hind feet, as well as very broken back axis. Hind feet get fixed with much shorter toe, larger shoe and "lifts" on outsides of feet and YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE the difference in this horse. Amazingly, he improves by leaps and bounds in dressage, he holds adjustments, his canter becomes nice, and most important, he ceases kicking me when I touch his hips! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    This horse has been a farrier's nightmare from the get go. I ended up with a young guy that was just getting started, and for five years, he tried really hard on Ben. Ben's feet are too small, and he has a club foot (left fore) is short backed and long legged. He has an incredibly thin sole and thin hoof wall. Horrid feet.

    So, for five years the same farrier did him with varying success, but staying mostly sound. In the middle of last year, I switched, not because my guy wasn't doing a good job (but it wasn't great) but because he just quit caring -- I'll put up with a lot in somebody if they are really trying.

    New farrier has worked miracles. Ben has moved from a 00 in the club foot to a 1, from a 0 in the rf to a 1 and to 1s behind as well. We hoof balanced him all around in November of last year to check and see where the hinds were, and to go ahead and look at the fronts. Fronts found way LT/LH in the rf and a little too steep in the left front.

    Last reset, when those pics were taken both fronts were at 3 inches of toe and at about 53 degrees.

    Matched feet. I thought it couldn't be done. At 10 years old you aren't supposed to be able to "fix" a club foot. But, with both feet trimmed to match the angle of the coffin bone, they are pretty much the same.

    Cool, huh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif He is an awesome mover now, and even more fun to ride. Now if we could just fix the annular ligament as easily http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif Actually we think the angle of the rf had something to do with the injury and hope that now that is fixed the ligament will stay good.

    And I'll go on to the underrun heels horse first thing in the morning with some questions -- slb you and John have made me feel much better allready -- the horse in question belongs to a delightful young friend of mine and he has been slightly lame for THREE YEARS.

    I finally got permission to start the reinvestigation into why today and spent a long time with their vet (we haven't done any looking at him for about 18 months) When we pulled his bell boots off and I saw his feet, I was FURIOUS. A master farrier does him, and I have to tell you that when I saw how bad his feet looked, I was very angry that a chronically lame horse has been given no more attention than that.

    My campaign is now to fix this horse's feet, and hopefully to work with the vet to find out why he is lame and to develop a management plan. This horse is only 13 -- can you guys help me figure this one out?

    I'll take pics tomorrow and post details . . .

    Thanks,

    Libby
    *Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*
    **********************************
    I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
    Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap



  8. #208
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2001
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    Tallahassee, FL
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bensmom, tell ya what, I'll send ya down a wack of money and you follow that vet and lameness expert around and buy up all them poor footed,underrun heals, never gonna save 'em horses, for cash, just ahead of the meat guy.(See if ya can get a few of them thar navicular ones as well.) when you get a trailler load or my money runs out, I'll slip down and pick them up.
    What a great business we are in. Experts creating opportunities every time ya turn around.
    Ya all know what a expert is???
    An "ex" is a has been, and a "pert" is a squirt under pressure.
    Is the heat too much down there or what???
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What, just because it was 70 degrees here today you think we are losing it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif Its back down to freezing now, so maybe we'll come back to our senses! I love this description. The vet that reported this looked sceptical, but said the "expert" never would answer the question of how to fix it. I'll take him your answers when you know the details on this one -- I've now decided seeing that this horse of my friend's gets fixed or managed soundly is my new personal mission!

    and:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bensmon, another thing, Just had another look at Ben's feet and they look really good.
    The shoeing job looks like a top notch professional job.
    And how did Martha set up your pictures???
    Thats a great way to present them.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'll be printing this for my farrier tomorrow, as he is due to come out and shoe the little monster (that would be my 6 year old TB whose bad shoeing in the past caused one bow and one fetlock with DJD, but I digress) He'll be thrilled http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    And Martha set the pics up with her brilliance!! I think she used photoshop to do it, but I know she was exploring other ideas -- Martha are you up to doing a couple of more horses for me? I'll get Buzz's pics after reset tomorrow and then the lame horse at least on front feet tomorrow.

    This is an incredibly informative thread!!

    Libby (who will also be printing the info about underrun heels and frog weight bearing for my friend.)
    *Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*
    **********************************
    I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
    Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap



  9. #209
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Bensmom...this is too good....I love this thread...I for one, will be looking forward to more pics. Wish more people would participate.

    Waiting for pics (hurry)....
    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  10. #210
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2000
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    314

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    Bensmom, thank you for writing up Ben's story. I love hearing about the tricky ones that finally get working sound.
    Regards John



  11. #211
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
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    1,987

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    Sure thing Libby! Anything to beat the sunnieflax thread! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    I am trying to get my farrier out this weekend for Trim #2. Pictures will follow if they're looking different. Let's hope!

    Java told his Animal Communicator (which is mostly entertainment for me, although its hard not to take her accurate findings seriously!)..... he *hates* his new rear shoes and wants them off. (she didnt know he had been barefoot for months and just got rear shoes)

    He said if I won't remove them for him he will remove them himself. He considers himself crafty. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif HAH! He also said his friend the farrier would agree that they are *not necessary*. I agreed to ask to farrier his opinion but no deals were made. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    Pretty funny.

    martha

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  12. #212
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    May. 2, 2001
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    Tallahassee, FL
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    Hey, you guys are great. There are people that start slipping away when I start talking about Ben's feet, and have flat passed out when I start on the little monster's feet story. I will go there tomorrow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    Now, for the lame horse one:

    This is a 13 year old QH who has been chronically lame for 3 years. Was acute at first, got better on joint stuff for a while, was sound under light flatwork, started back over low jumps, lameness came back, but was still intermittant.

    Diagnostics: Treated as a stone bruise for a long time, then finally x-rayed, no changes at all on x-ray. Went finally to Ocala when local vets stumped. Horse was barely lame enough to block -- vets there decided it was DJD in the coffin joint. Coffin joint injected with HA and Steroid. No improvement. Adequan series done with no improvement. When lameness came back last year, we injected coffin joint again, no improvement. Diagnostics were on the slim side then because of monetary considerations.

    Horse went back to light work in December and everyone has been holding our collective breath. The only lameness was when he pulled a shoe recently. He went back to work after that and was lame on Monday.

    At this point, owner has a big credit balance with a different vet in preparation for finally trying to find the problem. I called the vet (this horse is one in my boarding group at this barn -- I'm not really the manager -- i.e. they don't pay me board, but I buy the hay, bedding, feed etc. for this family's horses along with my own) and said "we got a horse finally lame enough to block, let's get started."

    Now, this family, while nice and in horses for years, doesn't really have a clue on technical stuff, so I finally have asked to please let me help. I haven't touched the issue of his feet, though, because they have used the same farrier for years, and he is well respected, but utterly uninterested in change, and really hates for clients, or nosy clients of other farriers (me) to even ask questions.

    I have just picked up this family's other horse and brought it home -- daughter has been living in MD, and shipped horse home ahead of her move. I was asked to get her feet done before daughter comes home. Their farrier doesn't do horses that might be difficult, so they let me ask my excellent farrier to do her, so the vet and I conferenced on her feet on Sunday, and my guy is going to do her.

    When the same vet pulled the bell boots off of the lame horse yesterday, he referenced that conversation and just kind of pointed to this horse's feet. I was mortified.

    Horse has really badly underrun heels, his feet look almost a size smaller than they used to, the wedge pads have crushed the underrun heels, and his weight bearing surface has slid way forward. The right front foot, in fact, is now more narrow and contracted, not a "club" foot, because the heel isn't long and upright, but the front has the same appearance as Ben's club foot used to.

    I'd like to see him with some changes, and I'll take pictures of his front feet today and post those tomorrow for your opinions. I don't want to insist that they switch farriers, because it is possible that this one might make requested changes, but it isn't going to be easy. I'd love to see this horse in poured pads -- to reduce concussion if it is DJD of the coffin joint, and to spread weight bearing over the foot.

    The vets blocks yesterday were only partially conclusive. We got 50% improvement with just the coffin joint blocked, 60% with more of the foot, and 80% with the whole foot. We are going to wait a couple of days and block just the pastern joint to see what we get.

    There has to be some way to help this horse. I did tell his owner that there probably isn't a "cure" for what's wrong with him, but I can damn sure work on a way, through shoeing and palliative care to manage this problem where he doesn't have to retire. There has to be a way -- right? Keeping in mind that he is only barely lame as it is, but I just know somewhere there's an answer . . .

    I'll put up pics of him and Buzzy tomorrow!

    Thanks for any input!

    Libby & Bear, who's tired of being lame

    [This message was edited by Bensmom on Feb. 06, 2003 at 08:14 AM.]
    *Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique*
    **********************************
    I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
    Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap



  13. #213
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Libby, has anyone checked to see if this horse is sore in the upper body...specifically the should, hip, or back area? IMO, this crushing of the heels that you see, is typical of what happens when wedges are improperly applied. I also think that wedges should be for theraputic application only...that would mean short term to help the foot correct itself, but any horse that needs them long term needs their feet evaluated or a new farrier.

    Can you watch how he walks...does he land toe or heel first, or does he land flat. Also, does he fully weight his heels when he lands/stands? Not sure you can spot this.

    I would say you are right...reducing concussion would be the first thing. Either some sort of pad, or rubber shoes with metal cores.

    If he is in full pads, did anyone evaluate for problems like thrush, deep seated thursh, or white line disease? IMO, vets rarely look at the full spectrum of things that might be wrong with the feet.

    If he has DJD in the coffin bone, then I wonder if he has an alignment problem...apart from the obvious...broken axis maybe? Or, what is the spacial alignment of the coffin bone? Does is sit tilted up or down, or is it more ground parallel? Also, did anyone inspect the digital cushion for atrophy? This could also be one of his problems.

    Wow...it sounds like this poor guy needs a lot of help http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  14. #214
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    Oct. 29, 2002
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    NY
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    Sorry, long and rambling post. This is a touchy subject with me right now and I can't type it into a coherent thought http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif

    Bensmom - I just wanted to say that your story about Ben's feet gives me some hope for my filly who has a mild club foot. What specific changes did your new farrier make? I didn't read the entire thread - is it in another post?

    My vets say that Cassie is not a candidtate for the tendon surgery, that this can be taken care of with proper trimming. Well, long story short I really feel that my farrier has just stopped trying http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif. I had been happy with how he was doing her feet up until about 2 months ago when he left her toe *really* long for some reason. That one trim undid the entire year of progress that we had. When I said something to him about it he told me, 'well, she's two now, there's not much more that can be done for her' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif She went from a point where I was starting to feel very optimistic all the way back to square one (actually, I think it is now worse than we started with) in one trim after he made a big change and he tries to blame it on her turning two!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif

    Am I right to be angry about this???

    As I was grooming her the other day, I just sat down in the aisle and stared at her feet for about half an hour (I think our part time help thinks I'm nuts now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif). None of her feet are balanced. The RF is clubbed and toes in slightly with a contracted heel (didn't when I bought her as a weanling!!!), the tubules in the LF are not perpendicular to the ground, and both of the hinds are at different angles. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif

    Unfortunately, changing farriers isn't an option. I manage the farm and he's the farrier who services us here. I have been unable to find anybody GOOD who will come out to trim just one horse. I am looking for a new job now (other reasons) and hopefully will be able to find one with a good shoer who can help Cassie. Until then, I'm stuck with this guy.

    Sorry, just needed to vent. http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/sigh.gif I just feel so helpless - I really wish I knew how to fix this.



  15. #215
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2002
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    Chicago, IL
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    I haven't fully processed the definition of "tubules". How does one know the specific direction these are growing?

    martha

    **Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks. **
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!



  16. #216
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Chin up Cassie...the foot can be reshaped at any time. Most club feet are created...generally start by a baby that doesn't want to weight its heels for a variety of reasons. It can almost always be corrected by trimming. Check out the Hope for Soundness web site. There is a trimming tutorial as well as a newsletter that gives some good pointers. They also have a couple of tapes...a new one that should be available soon is made for DIY barefoot trimmers. They also have a list of recommended farriers...maybe one is in your area. I know some of the people on their list and if they are all as talented as those, then any one of them should be able to help.
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  17. #217
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    Oct. 29, 2002
    Location
    NY
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    slb - thank you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif. I had looked at that site previously, but they didn't have the tutorial posted then. I'll sit down tonight when I have more time and read the whole thing.

    I'm just frustrated that she had been progressing so well then in one trim was set so far back. When I asked, the farrier could not give me a good reason why he trimmed her differently. The only straight answer I could get out of him was that - she's two now and this is the way she's going to be - line. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_confused.gif I've also been increasingly unhappy with how he's been shoeing the horses I care for here. The farm owner actually made a comment last time because he left her precious old gelding with feet that were 4 different lengths and 4 different angles.

    I'll have to see if I can get to use the digital camera to take some photos. I'd be interested in what you all think of some of these hooves.

    martha - I'm probably using the wrong term http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif, but what I'm looking at is the "grain" of her hoof. From what I've read and been taught, the "grain" should be completely perpendicular to the ground. Cassie's LF is deffinitely not perpendicular - from the top to bottom it is angled from inside to outside. I'm sure somebody who knows more will answer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif



  18. #218
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    Jan. 19, 2001
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    DC/Balmer
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
    Bensmom...this is too good....I love this thread...I for one, will be looking forward to more pics. Wish more people would participate.

    Waiting for pics (hurry)....
    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_cool.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Now that I have the ponies in my back yard, I will innundate you with pics! Since I leave before light and get home right at dusk, it will be this weekend, but I'll take a bunch!

    wheeeeeeeeeeee!

    --- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?
    ------------------------------
    Life Goes On



  19. #219
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    Nov. 6, 2002
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    Central NY
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    Great Lisamarie....we will be waiting for your pics! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *



  20. #220
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    Martha...here are some pics to compare. While you can't really see the tubules (they are microsocpic) the striations or "grain" on the outside of the hoof wall indicate the direction that they are growing.

    The top pic is a foot that has good direction to the growth. Note that the "tubules" are parallel to each other...the heel lines are parallel to the toe lines. The tubules are aligned along lines of weight-bearing stress.

    The bottom pic is a foot that has underrun heels. The tubules in the heel are not parallel to the ones in the toe....they are growing forward and not down. This results in a weakened heel with structure not growing in the direction of weight-bearing stress. You can also note on this pic (see arrow) that where the unnatural loading of the hoof wall occurs, that is where there is distortion resulting in flares and quarter cracks.

    [credit: Color Atlas of the Horse's Foot, C. Pollitt, 1995]

    Here is a link to further understand the microsocpic view and the value of quality horn growth: Hoof Care Study

    And here is a good article on what happens when there is a long toe/underrun heel: The Natural Angle
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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