[Daydream Believer]

Exactly. The horse owning public is easy prey for cook book hacks and pretenders whether they call themselves farriers or natural barefoot trimmers.

So if you follow the cook book it always comes out right, It's so easy, anybody can do it.

No big deal. One group of pretenders feeds another. Ramey is laughing all the way to the bank.

I'm certainly not here to defend Ramey but it is not true that he has a "cookbook" trim. He'll adapt his trim in a minute to suit the horse but he does have a general methodology not dissimilar to Duckett who I've seen you talk about a lot. A lot of folks get hung up and try to make every foot fit a certain mold. He does NOT teach that. I actually know him so I feel comfortable saying that. He is one of the most non assuming people I've ever met and was prefectly willing to discuss the mistakes he made in learning.

Yes, he certainly had made money...I'll bet anyone would if they could find a niche...I'm still looking for mine. He found one and used it and he has helped a lot of horses along the way. Lots of farriers/vets have written books and made money off of them. Some of the best go on to teach others.

As Gwen said, we all evolve and learn. I now shoe...and who'd of thunk that if you'd read my posts on here a few years ago?

I certainly do not agree with leaving horses hobble in pain. Not long ago I was called to trim a new client...a TB with soundness issues behind. She just wanted a trim. I found a horse so footsore in front that he could hardly stand. I insisted that he could not stay barefoot...I explained why he needed shoes and the owner agreed. Now I just have to figure out how to keep the danged shoes on this horse with crumbling walls and this moist wet climate where glue is useless.

[Tom Bloomer]

I'm certainly not here to defend Ramey but it is not true that he has a "cookbook" trim. He'll adapt his trim in a minute to suit the horse but he does have a general methodology not dissimilar to Duckett who I've seen you talk about a lot.

Really? What is Duckett's "methodology?" Maybe you should look up that word. Comparing Ramey to Duckett is like comparing a shade tree mechanic to a licensed PE mechanical engineer with an advanced degree.

A lot of folks get hung up and try to make every foot fit a certain mold. He does NOT teach that.

Of course not. He can't get away with that anymore. Like all the other feral cook book cult gurus he got his ass kicked by the famous two words, IT DEPENDS.

I actually know him so I feel comfortable saying that. He is one of the most non assuming people I've ever met and was prefectly willing to discuss the mistakes he made in learning.

His biggest mistake was to promote the idea that because he was a failure as a farrier that nobody else could figure it out either. IMO, he was pretty damned arrogant to put that ASSumption out there. It destroyed any chance he has for credibility with farriers. We have long memories.

Yes, he certainly had made money...I'll bet anyone would if they could find a niche...I'm still looking for mine.

Usually you find it where you hang your hat.

He found one and used it and he has helped a lot of horses along the way. Lots of farriers/vets have written books and made money off of them. Some of the best go on to teach others.

There's a difference between teaching and founding a hate cult of lemmings and sicking them on the public.

As Gwen said, we all evolve and learn. I now shoe...and who'd of thunk that if you'd read my posts on here a few years ago?

Gwen is one of the most evolved people I know.

I certainly do not agree with leaving horses hobble in pain. Not long ago I was called to trim a new client...a TB with soundness issues behind. She just wanted a trim. I found a horse so footsore in front that he could hardly stand. I insisted that he could not stay barefoot...I explained why he needed shoes and the owner agreed. Now I just have to figure out how to keep the danged shoes on this horse with crumbling walls and this moist wet climate where glue is useless.

Have you tried boots?

[grayarabpony]

"Followers" or actually well trained trimmers? There is a huge difference. He's written books and put out DVD's so anyone can watch them and claim to be his follower. No great revelation there.

FWIW, I've had to fix a lot of nearly crippled horses done by supposedly trained farriers who went to school somewhere or had certifications and are supposed to know how to trim. You'd never guess it from the trainwrecks these horses were. Unreal how bad the work was. I'm talking extreme flaring, underrun heels and long toes (very bad) and in many cases horses had shoes pullled, were trimmed and went lame (gasp) by these farriers with no help in transitions out of shoes! No one group has a corner on bad work or stupidity...there are good and bad farriers and good and bad trimmers.

I am trying to figure out what Swampyankee said that is so horrific to bring down so much wrath. She has horses in shoes and bare but prefers bare when possible...so what. She recommends Ramey's trim...so what...it's basically a good method if you do it right. She suggests that all trims are not created equal and I completely agree..so what. I don't see anywhere where she suggests in that transition period that horses should be allowed to limp around lame and hurting.

Amen. I have not read Pete Ramey's older writings but what's currently on his web site is good information. It's not his fault if others misuse his teachings. He doesn't recommend that horses limp around during transition from shoes either (and yes there may be a transition).

I have found Pete Ramey's work to be very helpful in dealing with my mare when she foundered.

Won't work for a TB or any horse who is going to have thin soles no matter what though. And from his work I get the impression he has enough sense to know that.

[Daydream Believer]

Gee Tom...here I thought we might actually have a meaningful conversation but you are awfully hung up on your dislike or hate or jealousy of Ramey...whatever. I take it you've not actually met him? I wasn't comparing him to the exalted Duckett but merely using that to make a point that he has a system which may or may not be correctly interpreted by his "followers" as you put it. Sorry I tried..as usual trying to have a discussion with you turns nasty which is why I generally don't bother.

The horse in question I shod was not a candidate for boots as he cannot be turned out in them..they are not intended for long term use and he needed long term protection. My use of boots is for ONLY short term protection during work...other than that, I don't generally recommend them. As usual it depends though as I have found boots to be a fantastic tool to rehab horses from laminitis.

[SwampYankee]

This thread's enough to make me start eventing on drugs.

[hundredacres]

This thread's enough to make me start eventing on drugs.

LOL...don't do it! The ignore button works just as well!

[Tom Bloomer]

Gee Tom...here I thought we might actually have a meaningful conversation but you are awfully hung up on your dislike or hate or jealousy of Ramey...whatever. I take it you've not actually met him? I wasn't comparing him to the exalted Duckett but merely using that to make a point that he has a system which may or may not be correctly interpreted by his "followers" as you put it.

In order for you to get any meaningful value out of our conversation you would have to TRY answer my question - What is Duckett's methodology? But you're too lazy to do that.

[LMH]

...but merely using that to make a point that he has a system which may or may not be correctly interpreted by his "followers" as you put it.

Adding to the fun of the discussion here...

If we just replaced "Ramey" with "Parelli" it would be the same conversation!

Sorry DB...that was just too fun to let slip.

[Tom Bloomer]

Adding to the fun of the discussion here...

If we just replaced "Ramey" with "Parelli" it would be the same conversation!

Sorry DB...that was just too fun to let slip.

Yea I've dealt with my share of PP trained pukes as well.

Fluffbunny predators . . .

[Mosey_2003]

This thread's enough to make me start eventing on drugs.

That was completely unnecessary.

[Daydream Believer]

In order for you to get any meaningful value out of our conversation you would have to TRY answer my question - What is Duckett's methodology? But you're too lazy to do that.

No, I'm not too lazy or I'd not be talking to you instead of keeping you on ignore. I'm a bit too busy to play all day on here so I'll pass on the Duckett discussion. It's not relevant to the topic.

[Mosey_2003]

What happened to singing kum-bay-ya with raw vegetables?

[rcloisonne]

That was completely unnecessary.

But funny!

[Rick Burten]

Adding to the fun of the discussion here...

If we just replaced "Ramey" with "Parelli" it would be the same conversation!

As an attorney, you well know that 'the truth is an absolute defense', so I won't point that fact out.... That said, I am aghast ( ) at the way you have disrespected Pat Pepperoni.....

[Rick Burten]

Like all the other feral cook book cult gurus he got his ass kicked by the famous two words, IT DEPENDS.

Hmmmmm, methinks I've heard those words before......

His biggest mistake was to promote the idea that because he was a failure as a farrier that nobody else could figure it out either. IMO, he was pretty damned arrogant to put that ASSumption out there. It destroyed any chance he has for credibility with farriers. We have long memories.

In an effort to mend fences and establish some semblance of credibility, Mr. Ramey said and wrote the following (the bolding/underlining is mine):

"I stopped nailing on metal shoes about 14 years ago (1998). I did this because I generally stopped seeing an equine need for it. Personally, I can almost always see a healthier option for a given horse. There is, however, often a human need for metal shoes. For this reason, I refer horses to competent horseshoers on a regular basis—which from any moral standpoint is identical to shoeing them myself."

Are you kidding me?? He's trying to bring morality/moral equivalency into the equation? Shame on him and his shallow and obvious attempt to ingratiate himself with the farrier community and other critical thinking folks he long ago left behind. Its a wonder that the Fluff Bunny Nation has not risen up and tarred and feathered him for his "moral"sacrilege.

Here's a news flash for Mr. Ramey. The only thing identical to shoeing them yourself is, shoeing them yourself. Methinks an alley cat has more/better morals.

[Rick Burten]

I'm certainly not here to defend Ramey but it is not true that he has a "cookbook" trim. He'll adapt his trim in a minute to suit the horse but he does have a general methodology not dissimilar to Duckett who I've seen you talk about a lot.

You would be better served if you stuck to topics about which you have knowledge.

As Gwen said, we all evolve and learn. I now shoe..

Dare I point out that nailing on some Eponas does not a farrier make.......

I certainly do not agree with leaving horses hobble in pain.

Well that's a relief to know........

Not long ago I was called to trim a new client.......Now I just have to figure out how to keep the danged shoes on this horse with crumbling walls and this moist wet climate where glue is useless.

First, you need to figure out why his walls are crumbling. Perhaps if you were a true full care hoof care provider, ie: a professional farrier, you would not be facing such a conundrum.

[caballus]

First, you need to figure out why his walls are crumbling. Perhaps if you were a true full care hoof care provider, ie: a professional farrier, you would not be facing such a conundrum.

Rick, that's unfair. Unfair to those who practice whole horse hoofcare who are trimmers and not farriers (i.e. me) and unfair to say that only professional farriers would have the answer. I could share gazillion stories about 'professional farriers' and the hooves I've seen but you know, you've heard, you've read. So perhaps an edit of your statement to say, instead, might be - "Perhaps someone who understands what set the hooves up to be in this condition in the first place might be the place to start."?

[Tom Bloomer]

What happened to singing kum-bay-ya with raw vegetables?

Does a wood guitar count? And are metal strings OK or do I need to use all natural cat gut?

[caballus]

Didn't I hear/read somewhere that the finest gut strings are made from equine gut? I have a 12 steel string if that counts? Hey, Tom -- we could jam together -- I promise not to spit celery out all over the place while I sing! :P

[Tom Bloomer]

Ok let's get this edited for clarity . . .

First, you need to figure out why his walls are crumbling. Perhaps if you were a true full care hoof care provider, ie: a professional farrier, or Gwen you would not be facing such a conundrum.