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  1. #1
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    Question Need pricing advice quickly!!

    I have a woman (hunter trainer) coming to look at a couple of horses I have for sale. During our chat I mentioned that we had gelded our ISH stud and were offering him as a riding/show prospect (she IS interested in him) and also mentioned that we had two nice fillies by him - not advertised anywhere or on our web, so this is NOT an advertisement!! She asked about the yearling filly and a price and I was totally unprepared to answer her. We never have sold them so young. So here goes...Irish Sport Horse filly, 3/4 TB - 1/4 Irish Draught, born June, 2011, Dark brown, pretty blaze, one hind sock will mature 16.3+. VERY nice mover...favors the TB in looks and hunter movement, but has the Irish, puppy dog disposition. She is very pretty headed with correct conformation. Need an "asking price" please!!! Thanks.
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  2. #2
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    All the yearling Irish Sport Horses on dreamhorse (only 5):
    http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_list.php
    Price range came in at $4,500 - $15,000

    If you kept her till 4, and she continued to develop well and started under saddle as easily as I think you anticipate, what would you ask for her then?

    On your website it looks like you're selling her sire for $10,000? I would think you could easily double that price if you spent a few thousand putting him in training with a BNT... that may be why she's so interested in him. There's a large potential for a profitable turnaround - assuming he's trainable, happy, and stays sound!

    If you are asking $10,000 for the sire, then I wouldn't think you shouldn't ask more than $5 or 6,000 for the yearling.

    Just my thoughts.



  3. #3
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    Thanks TwistedRiver. Background...we moved to NE Oklahoma from Southern Pines, NC, 7 years ago. I am "aging out" of starting the babies...still do extensive ground work, but no longer want to put the first leg across!! English riders - willing/non-yahoo/capable of getting on youngsters, under supervision just do not exist in our part of the country. I've trained horses for over 50 years and have not met a local trainer I would entrust with my horses. That is why I keep my prices down to attract buyers willing to take the risk of breaking/starting these horses we put so much time into raising. One woman told me - after flying in from Tx to look at a horse that "your horses aren't unbroken, they are unridden...big difference". We have a sale pending on our farm and would like to NOT move all of these horses to a new farm.
    I asked for advice here because one area woman said she would ask at least $12-15K for this filly. Back East I would too, but I was thinking exactly like you...$5-6 and out the door!! I don't want to hang a high price on her and own her at breaking time.
    The sire has been under saddle and is quiet enough that I would have no problem climbing on him. I have even considered keeping him for myself, but I have way too many finished/ready to go horses now. But he IS very attractive and nice to work with ...even when he was a stallion.
    Thanks for your input. CC
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  4. #4
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    I was initially thinking, if the yearling is "really nice," $12-15,000 But then I saw your asking price for her sire. All your rationale makes complete sense.

    I would tell the women coming out $6, negotiable if she wanted to buy the yearling and sire. The sire looks like a really good deal at $10 to me. I bet the filly would be a steal at $6.

    Good luck with the showing!



  5. #5
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    I wouldn't expect a 3/4 TB yearling to go for much, at least just going by text. If she is interested, tell her to make you an offer. Have a number in your head that you are willing to accept, and if she is below it see if you can negotiate. Her price in this particular situation would be what that buyer is willing to pay for her, so I would toss the ball in their court. And I am from "back east" 12k is pretty unrealistic. The ISH market is not an easy one, the ones selling (selling, not priced at) for over 10k are either rediculously super and registered, or well started under saddle and showing.

    We had someone come out once and want to buy a horse we didn't have for sale, and I hadn't considered a price on. I told her that, and said to make me an offer. She did, and I ended up accepting. I would just explain you didn't have her on the market but would consider selling, and see what she'll offer!



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twisted River View Post
    I was initially thinking, if the yearling is "really nice," $12-15,000 But then I saw your asking price for her sire. All your rationale makes complete sense.

    I would tell the women coming out $6, negotiable if she wanted to buy the yearling and sire. The sire looks like a really good deal at $10 to me. I bet the filly would be a steal at $6.

    Good luck with the showing!
    I agree with this.

    Do you think she could make an upper level eventer with that much TB blood
    *^*^*^
    Himmlische Traumpferde
    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"



  7. #7
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    Do you think she could make an upper level eventer with that much TB blood [/QUOTE]

    We breed for the upper level ability of eventers/jumpers/hunters, but with an amateur rider mind. I am a hunter rider at heart, but also a TB person. We started crossing our TB stallions on Clyde and Shire mares 30+ years ago, before anyone even knew about the Irish horses in our area. The "touch" of Irish adds bone, substance and attitude to the atletic TB package, but our TB's are known for their substance and wonderful dispositions anyway. My thoughts are that a "brilliant" horse isn't worth a thing if you can't get along with him.

    The filly I mentioned looks like a good boned TB with great athletic ability, but the sweetest disposition you could ask for. She has plenty of speed and cattiness, too.

    The sire was gelded and is offered for sale ONLY because we are downsizing and moving farther south. He is a lovely, excellent moving individual. We have two foals by him and both are outstanding, but we now have several ISH mares that will cross well on our TB stallion. I don't choose to breed anything more than 1/2 or 1/4 Irish, so that limits the mares I would breed to the ISH stud. I can now breed (we only do 2 or so foals a year) any mare we own to the same TB stud and get the type horse we are looking for. I never breed ISH to ISH - the foals would be built like tanks...not my goal.
    Denny Emerson sold one of our 3/4 TB crosses to a California client several years ago and at that time said those horses would "put our breeding program on the map"!! Then we moved to NE Oklahoma...BAD choice of a location for a sport horse breeder!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by okggo View Post
    I wouldn't expect a 3/4 TB yearling to go for much
    That's ridiculous. Granted, many breeders take average, unsound TB mares and breed them. I wouldn't expect those foals to reliably be particularly nice, and wouldn't expect to see them over $8 as a yearling. But TB blood does not = low quality/value! Take a look at all the TB blood running through Hilltop's breeding program. And these are predominantly dressage and/or jumper bred stallions.

    http://hilltopfarminc.com/breeding_stallions.html

    Maybe if I saw the yearling filly in question, I wouldn't think she was so nice, maybe I would. That's not the question. The question is what we would price a "VERY nice" moving with nice conformation and a pretty head yearling at.



  9. #9
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    We are back east and I would think you would be in the $5-7K range unless there is something pretty outstanding about her. The Irish yealing market is still slow around here.
    Epona Farm
    Irish Draughts and Irish Sport horses

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  10. #10
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    Thanks Twisted River. Because of the availability of OTTB's, people get it in their heads that if it has a uterus it is breeding quality!! Our breeding stock has either been carefully hand picked or home bred for all the important criteria necessary. Over the years I've had and seen WB mares that I wouldn't give stall space to let alone breed. The discrimination of the breeder is very important.
    Okggo - almost all of our youngsters have sold in the $15-25k range!! The last 1/2 TB, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 paint colt I sold here in Oklahoma brought $15k as a halter broke (well handled) 26 month old. There ARE buyers out there, just fewer in OK!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  11. #11
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    I have a 1/2 ID 1/2 Connemara yearling who is going to be quite tall.... he is a lovely fellow who I have priced at $5500. If he sticks around he will go into professional training and his price will go up exponentially
    www.muskokalakesconnemaras.com
    Wonderful ponies for family or show!



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosscreeksh View Post
    Thanks TwistedRiver. Background...we moved to NE Oklahoma from Southern Pines, NC, 7 years ago. I am "aging out" of starting the babies...still do extensive ground work, but no longer want to put the first leg across!! English riders - willing/non-yahoo/capable of getting on youngsters, under supervision just do not exist in our part of the country. I've trained horses for over 50 years and have not met a local trainer I would entrust with my horses. That is why I keep my prices down to attract buyers willing to take the risk of breaking/starting these horses we put so much time into raising. One woman told me - after flying in from Tx to look at a horse that "your horses aren't unbroken, they are unridden...big difference". We have a sale pending on our farm and would like to NOT move all of these horses to a new farm.
    I asked for advice here because one area woman said she would ask at least $12-15K for this filly. Back East I would too, but I was thinking exactly like you...$5-6 and out the door!! I don't want to hang a high price on her and own her at breaking time.
    The sire has been under saddle and is quiet enough that I would have no problem climbing on him. I have even considered keeping him for myself, but I have way too many finished/ready to go horses now. But he IS very attractive and nice to work with ...even when he was a stallion.
    Thanks for your input. CC
    Dressage is big in your area. I would think you could find someone to ride them. Maybe not an advertised trainer but I think there would be some people interested in in putting some rides in a well handled horse.

    Also I am wondering what your thoughts are on NC VS OK. I have family in the Tulsa area but NC seems like a better place to move to for weather and horse activities.



  13. #13
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    China Doll - I must admit that I am not a dressage rider!!! As an eventer, it was my worst phase (it's hard to go from hunter hands to dressage hands!)...and I'm sure that communicated to my horse who also preferred the jumping portions!! I did have a woman a couple of years ago who was a serious dressage rider, but for one thing...she mostly pissed off my huntery framed greenies and secondly I got her a FANTASTIC, high paying job with a woman who bought one of our ISH's and suddenly she could not make time to come here to get on horses!! I don't blame her - she's got a great job!! After that I had a wonderful teenage girl who came to me for lessons on her horse. She was perfect!! But for her 16th birthday, Daddy took her to get her driver's license AND a new SPORTS CAR!! Last I saw of her!! Honestly...the only time I see another rider on English tack is when my married daughter rides with me...and now SHE prefers western!! ACK!!
    Not to offend other OK folks, but...compared to NC, NE, Oklahoma is like living on a volcanic rock island!! The ground is black clay...hard as concrete when dry (all summer) slick as goose grease with a splash of rain/moisture, lethally hard when frozen (all winter). This winter was the warmest in recorded history...but the wind was high most of the time - 54 MPH (another record!!) one day. And did I mention the tornado threats?? And now this year we have had earthquakes!! The one thing I LOVE are the people!! I've never lived in an area where ALL the people were so friendly and nice. But that doesn't help the lack of suitable riding (for me). The closest "English" tack shop is 50 miles away. "Schooling Shows" are mostly non-existant and 70 miles away and are 3 day affairs (thousands of $$$ for entries and stabling at the big Tulsa Expo Center).
    Sorry to sound so grumpy...but you asked!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  14. #14
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    Actually if you quote the REST of that post, it's realistic. I follow the market, not what people want to sell horses for. In general the ISH market is down, with the exceptions I noted. An average TBxID (in whatever proportions) is not selling for the big bucks (in general). Above average and showing is more desirable. We haven't seen anything of the OPs so I'm just going by text alone, no pictures, we don't even know if she is registered or eligible to be. And I never said anything about TBs, but yes that market is down too, and NOT all TBs are created equal, particularly for sport. Of course there are exceptions, there always are Oh and PS the market for YEARLINGS is also not a huge one. Your proof was a link to dreamhorse and what people WANT to sell some ISHs for. I'm talking about actual market knowledge.

    Crosscreek, that is awesome! Then why are you selling your stud-now-gelding for so low?

    Edited to add, I'm not saying and never said the horse wasn't worth anything, just that 12k is probably unlikely for an average ISH yearling, unless it is one of the exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twisted River View Post
    That's ridiculous. Granted, many breeders take average, unsound TB mares and breed them. I wouldn't expect those foals to reliably be particularly nice, and wouldn't expect to see them over $8 as a yearling. But TB blood does not = low quality/value! Take a look at all the TB blood running through Hilltop's breeding program. And these are predominantly dressage and/or jumper bred stallions.

    http://hilltopfarminc.com/breeding_stallions.html

    Maybe if I saw the yearling filly in question, I wouldn't think she was so nice, maybe I would. That's not the question. The question is what we would price a "VERY nice" moving with nice conformation and a pretty head yearling at.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by okggo View Post
    . If she is interested, tell her to make you an offer. Have a number in your head that you are willing to accept, and if she is below it see if you can negotiate.
    Please don't. As a buyer, if a seller starts that "make me an offer" nonsense with me, it's pretty much instantly a lost sale. I figure if you, having lived with, bred, raised this horse don't know what she's worth, it's probably not much, or, you do know it's not much, but are hoping I'm some starry eyed newb and will give you a number higher then she's worth. Or, you just don't want to sell - unless you can really fleece me.

    If, on the insanely miniscule chance that I want that particular animal bad enough to deal with a seller who's playing games, the price I name will be about half of the value I estimate her at because I figure you either really don't want to sell her anyway and the whole thing will be a huge hassle I don't want to throw time or money at, or, there's something wrong you're hoping to slip by me.

    Sorry - it's just a major pet peeve of mine. From the buyer's standpoint, there is no price that you can name that will come out with happiness for everyone involved, it's very easy for feelings to get hurt - the tension just isn't worth it. I just won't do it when buying anything at all.
    I would so HUGELY prefer an owner who said something like "I hadn't really thought of selling her, I like her a lot and it would take <insert high price> for me to be interested in giving her up" That I can seriously negotiate with and even if it doesn't lead to a sale, no hard feelings.
    "Make me an offer" gets "I'll have to think about it and get back to you. Thanks for your time, have a nice day" as I walk back to my truck.
    Last edited by Riverotter; Jun. 1, 2012 at 06:54 AM. Reason: spelling



  16. #16
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    Excellent points Riverotter. I DO have a figure in my head...just wanted some other thoughts. What I see in this market is people looking for steals/bargains. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it devalues your horse if you show an urgency/desperation to sell. An old horse trader told me years ago that "you shouldn't have to be the seller AND the buyer"!! Set your price then listen to offers. I HATE it when a customer says..."so what the least you'll take!!"
    This is a very nice filly. We have 80 acres of grass, hay is being baled and plenty of stalls. I will bargain to the right person, but despite what my husband thinks when he looks at the check book...this is not (meant to be) a non-profit organization!!
    ps...the woman in question LOVED the filly, but bought another horse from me - not the filly!! And she was WILD about the gelded ISH stallion and is bringing another person to look at him. A good day for all.
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



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