The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 172
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 1999
    Location
    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
    Posts
    15,524

    Default

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    3.)Goals When Bringing Dream Back To Work - Showing him in 2-3 classes at the local show on Saturday. Also, making sure that his hoof gave him no further problems.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I know that when you wrote this, you meant to reverse the order of your two goals. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2001
    Location
    Davis, CA
    Posts
    2,440

    Default

    Yes, that was supposed to be first.

    **~~Andrea, Dreamer, Josie~~**
    "If your parents never had children, chances are you won't either."
    Dick Cavett. (IHFLC-Founder)
    Drea



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2002
    Location
    San Antonio, TEXAS!
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *In Your Dreams*:
    thanks. Does anyone have any critiques on Josies confirmation? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    **~~Andrea, Dreamer, Josie~~**
    "If your parents never had children, chances are you won't either."
    Dick Cavett. (IHFLC-Founder)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ok, I don't wana get flamed for saying this, its JMHO.

    She looks like she has a REALLY weak hindend. It's really small compared to the rest of her body, which could be an issue, because there isn't as much as a 'motor'.

    Her back legs look a tad straight.

    Her neck also seems to sit a bit oddly on her shoulders (but that could just be me) and appears a bit short.

    She's pretty cute though.

    * B E L E N *
    *Larks Caruso* / *Every So Often*
    And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually - J.H
    ---&gt; *My New Page* &lt;--- (9/27- NEW Pics of Cruz)
    Belen
    http://community.webshots.com/user/lovingit09
    \"I\'m looking for a dare to be great situation\"- John Cusack



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2001
    Location
    Davis, CA
    Posts
    2,440

    Default

    She does have a really weak hind end. It is acutally better then it was when I started working with her. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] The neck looks weird in the picture...she actually is ok there.

    Straight in the hind end?
    Thanks for the critique!

    **~~Andrea, Dreamer, Josie~~**
    "If your parents never had children, chances are you won't either."
    Dick Cavett. (IHFLC-Founder)
    Drea



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb. 8, 2001
    Location
    sonoma
    Posts
    575

    Default

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *In Your Dreams*:
    Questions-
    .
    2.)No Purpose For Me- Had Been hand walked on dirt road while injured to keep in some shape. Also was on pasture board while hurt, so he had already walked all day. Trust me, in the pastures we have right now, they can not eat too much grass in one spot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Walking around in a field is not "exercise" or "fitness training". That is like saying shopping at Wally World is exercise. You're walking around this huge place and covering a bit of ground, yes, but maintaining a fitness level? Not even close. As evidenced by people who obviously "live" at Wally world and shop in the XXXL Plus size department.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3.)Goals When Bringing Dream Back To Work - Showing him in 2-3 classes at the local show on Saturday. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ok, trying to be tactful here, but tact is not a strong point for me... Setting a goal of going to a show a week after a horse is brought back after 1/4 of a YEAR off is not keeping the horse's best interest in mind.

    Taking him to a show so soon after an INJURY layup smacks of selfishness on your part. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] Sadly, this is the undercurrent I have read into all of your posts. It is all about you,you,you and your refusal to face reality that you can and do frequently make mistakes and that you need a trainer and you need to be humble and listen. You say you are trying, but...well, as Yoda said so eloquently; Do or do not; there is no "try".

    Showing "right now" was what YOU wanted, not what was best for THE HORSE. What useful purpose did taking him to a show serve? To prove he could do it? Yeah, he could and did, but how did it benefit the horse?

    Would his interests have been better served if he had stayed home? Yes. For that reason alone, your decision was not the best for your horse.

    [This message was edited by chimaera on Oct. 08, 2002 at 09:40 PM.]



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep. 18, 2001
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    4,209

    Default

    Andrea, I think you've got a bit to learn if you think handwalking and drifting around a pasture serves as enough conditioning walk. Also, I think Jo was surprised at your comment about doing 15 seconds either way, because 15 seconds, one quarter of a minute, doesn't seem like enough time to really get anything done...at any pace. I don't really know what you meant by your original comment. Did you mean you obviously didn't just concentrate on jumping because you walked/trotted, or cantered, for 15 seconds either way? I'm confused.

    And for what it's worth, I did not find HeyYouNags's post the least bit uncalled-for. Admitting that one needs to listen better/respect others opinions/try to learn more and then not doing it is no better than continuing to not listen/respect/learn.

    *EMMA*



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2002
    Location
    San Antonio, TEXAS!
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    And now that more people have said EXACTLY what I feel, I don't feel scared to say "AGREED"

    * B E L E N *
    *Larks Caruso* / *Every So Often*
    And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually - J.H
    ---&gt; *My New Page* &lt;--- (9/27- NEW Pics of Cruz)
    Belen
    http://community.webshots.com/user/lovingit09
    \"I\'m looking for a dare to be great situation\"- John Cusack



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2001
    Location
    New Amsterdam
    Posts
    4,974

    Default

    Andrea,

    I think your latest posts show some new maturity. Good job!

    It's not easy to open yourself to such a large group, let alone come back to one, and so far you've handled yourself very well. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    We all don't agree on everything here what fun would that be? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ) so don't get discouraged.

    Good luck with the horses!

    ****
    New York Horse Rescue



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2000
    Location
    ~the back of my horse, where the view is best!
    Posts
    4,144

    Default

    Am I understanding correctly that you took Dreams to a show less than one week after you started riding him again after a considerable lay off? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    Why would you do such a thing? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] His tendons and ligaments could not possibly have been ready for the stress and strain of a show, much less several classes over fences. Jumping is jumping, whether it be 2' or 4' and if he hasn't been jumping for 3+ months, it certainly isn't fair to the horse to drag him to a show and expect him to perform.

    I agree with chimaera; your goal of showing was not performance oriented, but purely selfish. How sad.

    ~&lt;&gt;~ Remember, the Ark was built by a rank amateur; the Titanic was built by a team of experts~&lt;&gt;~



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan. 24, 2000
    Location
    The Frozen Tundra
    Posts
    3,745

    Default

    Andrea, thanks for taking the time to explain your program. I'm glad you've thought about your goals and what you are doing with your horse. That said, I do disagree with you in a couple of places.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    1.)Specific Purposes Of Walking - To Streghthen Tendons Without Exerting Too Much Pressure On The Legs.
    2.)No Purpose For Me- Had Been hand walked on dirt road while injured to keep in some shape. Also was on pasture board while hurt, so he had already walked all day. Trust me, in the pastures we have right now, they can not eat too much grass in one spot.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree that walking helps to establish a baseline fitness. Walking on a firm surface, sometimes called "legging up" helps to tighten tendons by stretching them mildly and allowing them to strengthen. Jimmy Wofford advocates walking a horse one hour every day in addition to its regular work (dressage, gallop, ect.)! While Dream may have been "pasture fit" and able to walk an hour or more without, for example, becoming winded, horses don't walk for an hour at a consistent pace on hard ground by themselves. Hand walking him definately helps -- and for a horse who has been hand walked, I will incorporate some trot work much earlier in the rehab program than a horse who has been completely off. However, hand walking doesn't strengthen the tendons as much since your weight isn't on the horse's back (even if you are really light!). Also, when hand walking, the horse is not likely to use his neck and back and engage his hindquarters as he does under saddle. So these are some of the reasons I think it's important to walk, under tack, a horse who's been turned out or even hand-walked.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    3.)Goals When Bringing Dream Back To Work - Making sure that his hoof gave him no further problems.
    Showing him in 2-3 classes at the local show on Saturday.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree that making sure the hoof is in good shape is a good goal. When I rehab a horse, I usually design goals around his way of going -- I'd like Blackie to come back to work relaxed, with a longer stride than he was using when he injuried his X. Also, I set fitness goals -- I'd like Blackie to be trotting 15 minutes without blowing. I set these performance targets and let the show come to me, rather than planning for a specific competition, because ultimately the horse and the long-term plan are more important than any single competition. (Just ask the many event riders who have given up three-days because a little tiny problem caused a missed gallop, which meant the horse wasn't quite fit enough...but came back to do well the next season!)

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    4.)Ascess Condition Of Horse- Tendons were clean and tight. NO swelling in the legs. Horse did not loose any muscling because of the hand walking up hill. Lost a little endurance, but not too much is needed for 2 short hunter courses. Also, gained some weight, but he needed to.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Again, you seem generally aware of your horse's condition -- this is a good start! When I am rehabing a horse, I usually keep a notebook in which I record how long the horse worked, how long it took him to recover, and any physical issues such as heat in a leg. That way, if problems come up, I have a complete record and I can notice something before it becomes a problem.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    5.)Ready To Jump Because- W/T/C and taking poles fine. You can barely call it a jump, but he took 2 18 inch cavellitis(sp?) on Wednesday. I think.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I disagree with you here. I don't think a horse is ready to jump just because he's walked, trotted, and cantered for 15 seconds. I like to get horses up to 30 minutes of trotting and 5-10 of cantering before I jump a course at all. I might start with gymnastics at 20 minutes of trotting and 5 minutes of cantering, just to get the horse back in that frame of mind and to do some basics first. But a horse who has had that much time off is at risk of injuring a tendon even over very small fences. Without long, slow conditioning, horses aren't balanced enough to take the turns and their tendons aren't ready for the landing side of the fences -- even the small ones. Also, they are likely to be fresh, making the jumping a less productive school. What do you think you got out of jumping so early that you would have lost by waiting? With a horse, I never think that "because you can" is a good enough reason to do anything.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    6.)Evauluating Before and After Exercise - Made sure his legs were tight and clean, that he did not squirm or show pain when I put the saddle on. Made sure my girth could still fit. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] He was ready to go when I got on. After 15 minute ride, he was not sweaty, or breathing hard. He was slightly warm. I did not check his pulse because I felt there was no need to.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree that checking his legs is the first step. Also, paying attention to the condition of his hooves. I don't always check pulse, but I do record respiration as part of my rehab log.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    7.) I made sure that we stayed off the sand because that is what gave him the abcess. I also did not focus on jumping. Mostly walking/trotting. About 15 seconds(approximentaly) each way. Walked out throughly after wards, and we warmed up longer then usual on a LONG rein so he could strech and get the yawns out.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Paying attention to your footing is important when rehabing a horse -- good call! However, I'd also pay attention to they type of work you do -- no small circles to stress tendons early on in the process, for example. I would only work the horse in a long frame at this stage of the rehab process. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you warmed up longer than usual, yet only worked for 15 minutes. How long do you usually warm up?

    Other things to pay attention to are: is the horse traveling evenly in both directions? Is he weaker to one side or the other, carrying his head or tail unevenly, or cutting corners more than usual? Are transitions smooth, or are they weak or resistant? Does the horse lean on the bit, indicating that he can't carry himself? Does he become more resistant after some work, indicating that he is tired? Is he balanced through corners and on circles? Comfortable bending in both directions? Accepting the bit evenly?

    Andrea, I'm not trying to pick on you. I think that you are enthusiastic about your horses, but because you have so little guidance when it comes to riding, you are prone to making mistakes. That's why working with a professional is so important. If you aren't willing to work with a trainer right now, consider consulting your vet about a proper plan to bring Dream back to work. Think of his best interests, not yours! --Jess



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2000
    Location
    Washington, D.C., U.S.A.
    Posts
    4,155

    Default

    Oof. You all have already said it. HeyYouNags may have said it best (with true rileyt tact).

    Andrea, I have seen ONE small area of improvement. You have now stopped wasting trainers' time taking lessons when you didn't want to learn from them. I'm glad you realized this. It is the beginning of a thing called "self-analysis".

    There is something to remember though, and I think this is where people here are frustrated. You say you love your horse, your friend agrees. I see his shiney coat, that's great. I don't doubt that you "love" him. But you can unknowingly abuse your horse (I know that's a strong word) by riding him in a way that is irresponsible or incorrect. This is what some of us are concerned about. I'm really NOT trying to jump on you. (You've caught me on one of my more tactful days) The fact that you've done "OK" with your greenie's this far does not mean that's the best way to continue. If you REALLY love your horses, you will try to LEARN everything you can (this involves listening to others), so that you can have them properly prepared for their task, and as happy as possible in their work.

    Endless hours of grooming, hand grazing and carrots is a good start,... but its not enough. If you truly love your horses, you will get help. But don't do it until you're ready to listen.

    This was the point, I believe, that HeyYouNags put so delicately [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2000
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    13,107

    Default

    Maybe taking a horse out of a field after 3 *weeks* off and doing what you did would be reasonable, but after 3 months off, not.

    You got away with it this time, insofar as not hurting the horse. You may not always be so lucky.

    Stop looking at the respponses as people picking on you, and look at them as trying to teach you something about horsemanship, and both you and the horse will be better off.

    As has been noted, ambling around a pasture does not constitute fitness training.

    Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2001
    Location
    Those special moments come and go...a photographer makes them last a lifetime!
    Posts
    3,031

    Default

    Putting on my flame retardent suit...
    I think many of you are being a bit harsh, don't ya think?! I'm tired of the Holier than thou attitude from some people. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Trying to help is one thing...being RUDE is another!!! ~JMHO~
    I agree with much of what has been said. Don't get me wrong, I think that bringing a horse back slowly is the right thing to do. I DON'T think that what she did was quite as BAD as some of you are trying to make it. I'm actually bringing back a mare from a fracture...we hand walked her for a while, then sat on her and walked her for several weeks. We just now have started her back w-t. Now this is after almost a full year off and a speedy recovery according to our vet. So I'm not just one to jump and say...Who cares!
    I know what is being said is meant as "help", but some of you need to watch just how you are wording things. I think Andrea has shown a good deal of "fair sportsmanship" compared to how she has been in the past. I think she should be commended for that. I think some of the flamers here should be ashamed of themselves.

    Andrea~ I don't see anything wrong with you wanting to take some time off from "trainers" to have some fun for a while. I do think that if you post here...you have to be aware that you may "hear" things you don't want to. I think you know that, lol...but just in case [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]. You may also get great information and help...allow yourself to open up a little. You can learn a lot just by listening!
    I still say that as long as Dreamer was happy and sound, there was nothing wrong in what you did. You didn't take him to the show thinking that you were going to show him. It just happened...you didn't pound him, you didn't over do it. If he had had a much larger problem, then I might have a different attitude.
    I'm still trying to figure out the 3 months off for an abscess. Even if it were two and they were high....why so long? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]Natalie [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    ***3 weeks to go and counting~WHOO HOO***and my unborn child already has her spurs on....OUCH!!!
    www.kimballphotography.smugmug.com
    ~*~Mom of the wonderful Nikolas aka \"Niko\"~*~
    **Proud member of The Colorful blinb-bling helmet, SCgirls, BGSGand the EquinePhotog (do we have one yet?) cliques**



  14. #54
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2000
    Posts
    4,705

    Default

    I'm just going to share a re-hab guideline I was given by a trainer I respect enormously and that has worked well for me. She said that for every two weeks of missed work, you will need one week to get the horse back to where he was before taken out of work. Of course, this is a generalization and for some injuries, sickness, or surgeries, you may need to plan for more time, but I think this is a good starting point when figuring out how much time you need to rehab your horse.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique



  15. #55
    Join Date
    May. 18, 2000
    Location
    Fuquay-Varina, NC,
    Posts
    2,165

    Default

    I will admit that I was one of the people put out with Andrea in the past. But I've got to give the kid some credit, she came back here, IMO, with a bit of a different attitude.

    While I don't agree with taking a horse out of the pasture after a lay up and taking it to a show within a week, instead of bashing her about the face and arms, offer construtive critism with regards to how it could have/should have been done different.

    Andrea, while it is good that Dream was able to walk around in a hilly pasture, a horse at liberty is quit different than a horse under saddle. While at liberty a horse is under his own influence. He is able to go at his own pace. If he so choses to gallop, he can. If he choses to snooze under a tree, he can.

    The addition of a rider on a horse changes the scenario. Not only does the horse have to contend with its own weight but that of a rider. Also, the horse does not work under its own steam, so to speak.

    The rider is telling the horse what to do and when. The rider is asking/telling to horse to use itself correctly from the haunches. Well, hopefully anyway. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    A horse that is recovering or being rehabbed from a tendon injury needs to be brought back into work slowly. The area of the injury has been weakened. In order for there not to be a reoccurance, fitness and strength need to be built upon gradually.

    Many people on this bb, I bet if you asked nicely, would be able to establish a rehab plan for Dream and yourself.

    After my horse had a lay off, I put him on the lunge, I only walked the first day for about 10 minutes, the second day walked for 10 minutes and maybe trotted for about a minute. Did day 2 regimn for another couple of days. After about 4 or 5 days I increased the time to 20 minutes with a bit more trot. After a week I introduced the canter. After about a week and half I lunged for about 10 minutes and then got on my horse the first time and just walked, making sure he was using his haunches and really marching, but not rushing. As time went on, I let my horse tell me when he was getting tired, you can feel it. Now don't get me wrong, you do eventually have to push them a bit in order to gain strength, but you do it gradually.

    This is very basic and may seem a bit conservative, but I feel that the slow approach is better and will suit the horse in the long run.



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Apr. 25, 2000
    Posts
    9,127

    Default

    I don't know why you guys are even bothering. We've *all* been through this discussion with her before, and it did no good. Save your breath on someone who's actually going to listen.

    "You might think there would be an explanation for this... but you would be wrong."



  17. #57
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2000
    Posts
    4,705

    Default

    Jo, I know what you're saying, but there are a number of good posts in this thread containing valuable information that other people will definitely benefit from. Maybe the intended person won't put it to good use, but others will. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2000
    Location
    Washington, D.C., U.S.A.
    Posts
    4,155

    Default

    For those of you who think Andrea has been a good sport, and has come back here with "a different attitude" I hope you're right. But I don't see it. IMHO its the same old song.

    Again, I see big *THANK YOU* to every poster who tells her "good girl" while totally ignoring anyone who posts anything which does not totally condone her methods. Many of the posts here have offered constructive criticism. I don't see one response.

    same old song.

    Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2001
    Location
    New Amsterdam
    Posts
    4,974

    Default

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rileyt:
    For those of you who think Andrea has been a good sport, and has come back here with "a different attitude" I hope you're right. But I don't see it. IMHO its the same old song.

    Again, I see big *THANK YOU* to every poster who tells her "good girl" while totally ignoring anyone who posts anything which does not totally condone her methods. Many of the posts here have offered constructive criticism. I don't see one response.

    same old song.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And I think you might want to re-read the thread. There certainly are some 'thank you' posts but even some of those either a) acknowledge she still has issues; or b) discusses some other element that has been raised. Particularly review page 2. Andrea made an effort (perhaps not to your satisfaction) to answer most of the posts that disagreed with her approach. As for the posts today, I rather imagine she's in school (or should be [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ).

    I believe that I (and some of the other posters) are not saying that I (we) agree or disagree with Andrea, but simply that she's taken a very mature step for a 14 year-old girl to come back to a very large group of opinionated, educated, intelligent....and dare I say, cliquish and sometimes exclusionary....internet users. That takes a lot of guts IMO, especially since she's done it while exhibiting a staggering degree of tact for her age and in light of some posts that immediately assume she's still the same person who was here a few months ago.

    There's an incredible wealth of knowledge collected here and we all can always learn more and different methods for accomplishing the same goals. But IMNSHO, the best way to encourage that education is to perhaps be a little gentler and a little accepting of differences so that those that probably need to learn a little more, might want to stick around and actually learn it.

    That said, I think there are a number of very helpful and constructive posts on this thread -- we can all learn something from them. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    ****
    New York Horse Rescue



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug. 1, 2002
    Location
    Midwesterner in Yankeeland
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    can i second suzy's post? i know i'm fairly fascinated by the info on rehabbing...
    http://longestformat.blogspot.com/

    "The present tense of regret is indecision."
    - Welcome to Night Vale



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 149
    Last Post: Aug. 7, 2003, 05:09 AM
  2. Replies: 161
    Last Post: Jun. 16, 2003, 03:12 PM
  3. ocala photographers -long
    By kevin in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 188
    Last Post: Mar. 10, 2003, 06:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •