[Sonesta]

Sonesta, I'm not going to write to Deb & ask her where she got the alleged quote from Bill. Deb added her own explanation to "feelings", if it'd help you to "Be-LEEVE!" lol! She said the "feelings" are the horse's point of view: & I'll add: how the horse sees life & its incidents, including actions/attitudes of humans. Not human feelings, but rather horse pov.

Hope that helps. Of course, you're welcome to track down the quote as far as you can; I just don't find it necessary for myself, as I find it a believable Dorrance quote.

Just tell me in what writing she records this quote.

[Western]

On her site, in "Forum" on a thread which title I don't recall, but it was in "recent", of which there are only several, iirc, it was in the thread started by "Merlin", she said that it was NOT in any of Bill's published works, but that he said it. Btw, I also did NOT say nor mean to imply that it was in anything published by Bill.

[SamWerner]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. Even if I do not agree or understand what some of you have stated, it is still much appreciated that you took the time out of your day to help me out.

I love this board for that. EVERYONE on here has something to offer, whether you agree with it or not. Thanks all!!


And P.S. Hasn't nipped out once since the time I had to whack him...

[danskbreeder]

Hi I couldn't take the time to read everything so if I am repeating something, sorry. With all of my foals and youngsters I hide a "realemon" plastic lemon in my hand. If they try and bite I squirt the lemon juice in their mouth. It eliminates the issue of hitting them (I'm not much of a hitter) and they don't really figure out where it comes from just that it's really yuckky. I don't usually have to do it more than a few times. Good Luck!

[7HL]

in "Forum" on a thread which title I don't recall, but it was in "recent", of which there are only several, iirc, it was in the thread started by "Merlin", she said that it was NOT in any of Bill's published works, but that he said it.

See, that makes perfect sense.

[okggo]

And P.S. Hasn't nipped out once since the time I had to whack him...

That was the experience I had with my guy. It only took the once, and he hasn't tried it since (he is 7 now). Your boy is SMART, it shouldn't take but once for him to "get" it And sounds like he already did.

[Kyzteke]

Sonesta, as I said, I'd never read/heard the quote from Bill Dorrance before reading it from Deb Bennet's site, but Deb is a dedicated student of the Dorrances, & wouldn't find a need to misquote them, I'm quite sure! Nevertheless, Bill authored (with Leslie Desmond's help) a large book titled, "True Horsemanship Through Feel", in which you'll find the whole book comprised of such statements. Thus, for him to have made the statement is entirely believable. Your denial that he said it is baseless, anyway; how do you know that he didn't say it, especially in light of his large book filled with just such statements?

From the book:

"Whether the person understands it or not, feel is all the horse has to go on."

"When it comes to cooperating with the human, we're talking about the feeling the horse has in every square inch of his hide and all through his mind, as it relates to the human touching him directly or indirectly."

"If you think that the horse isn't doing what you want him to do just to be ornery, and then you want to punish the horse for this, why then you haven't got the right feelings or attitude toward the horse."

"No, when that feel a person presents isn't clear to the person - which it won't be if they're using those mechanics or any type of restraint rig, then it's not going to be clear to the horse, either."

FEEL (of the horse): This is the main thing a horse needs a person to know about. And we're speaking of connecting with the horse's mind..."

So the quote from Deb's site is just so UN-Dorrance?

OMG --You are missing the entire meaning of "feel"!!

My copy of "True HMS Through Feel" is well-read, dog-earred and highlighted like crazy.

You apparently have not actually READ the book have you?

Once you do, you will realize BD is (in general) talking about a PHYSICAL feel and spends most of the book giving people exercises that improve their PHYSICAL connection with their horse(s), till (eventually) your sense of "feel" between you and your horse is so refined as to be almost invisible to bystanders. From there, if you want to do liberty work, you "expand" your ability to use your sense of "feel" (which is basically using your energy to control the space of a horse) to more distance. Just like my alpha mare can part the herd with a single pinned ear from 30 ft away (whereas I have to be at least 6 ft away).

And once a horse is trained to that level and ridden/worked by a skilled horseman, it often seems the horse is "reading your mind" because it seems they respond (almost) before you ask.

I've experienced this when riding high-goal polo ponies and well- trained ranch horses.

But you are NOT using the word in a telepathic sense. There MUST be a physical connect based on feel first.

I'd go on and on, but I still have a cast on my right arm, and it hurts to type.

All I can say Western, is that you are TOTALLY misunderstanding the meaning of the word "feel".

[sid]

For those who have God-given "feel" and intuition...THE hardest thing is to teach to those who don't have it -- on the ground with a horse or under saddle.

A trainer's and horseman's frustration when trying to help others -- but it's really not the fault of those who don't "get it" who really CAN'T. They are not stupid.

It's really a physical and and internal feeling the just lack for whatever reason.

Some have it natural "feel", others can learn it.. Some can't ever learn it because of their physical and mental make up. Those who may want to "feel" the feel like Western will read alot, glom to PP...but may never quite get it personally. I've seen this kind of thing before. Good for trying though.

That's my take having dealt with many, many over the years.

[SamWerner]

That was the experience I had with my guy. It only took the once, and he hasn't tried it since (he is 7 now). Your boy is SMART, it shouldn't take but once for him to "get" it And sounds like he already did.

Yes, sometimes too smart for his own good! He now just has that playful twinkle in his eye, but keeps his mouth to himself

[Western]

Kyzteke, you've got Bill's book & so do I. He gives 7 definitions of feel in his glossary, not including the 8th, "FEEL, TIMING, and BALANCE"! He says that INdirect feel is the main type of feel that he wants the human to understand, because horses "get" this, as it's their nature. This indirect feel is the MAIN thing a human needs to know about, right out of his definitions; read 'em! INdirect feel is NONphysical connection to the horse.

You don't like the word "telepathy"? Don't use it. The facts of the horse, can't be changed by humans; arguing over words is all too human. I'm finished here.

He also says somewhere in the book that no one can teach "feel". You can't teach it to me, I can't teach it to you.

I agree with Stanek on the heart of the horse.
I agree with Parelli on the horse needing to know that you care.
I agree with Bill Dorrance that true horsemanship is through "feel", all 7 definitions of it. lol!

I acknowledge that the horse is the best teacher of the horse.

Over. The End. Finis.

[7HL]

I agree with Parelli on the horse needing to know that you care.

A horse doesn't "need to know" anything let alone that anyone cares. It's needs are really very basic. The anthropomorphising of the horse is one of the biggest problems that many do to horses..

You don't like the word "telepathy"? Don't use it. The facts of the horse, can't be changed by humans; arguing over words is all too human.

Please everyone argue in horse, but not just is words please do it telepathically.


Some of those that don't believe that anyone should use any physical force with a horse, obviously have not watched herd behavior. Learning to deal with horses by just book, cd, dvd and internet is a poor way to learn. You have to have hand on experience.

[Western]

There are things that the horse NEEDS from the human, and there are things that the human NEEDS to know about the horse, for a good partnership.

For you to ARGUE this just shows further that you're an argumentative cuss. Post reported, not that it's done any good so far.

[Western]

See, that makes perfect sense.

Since you can't follow: "she" refers to Deb, "he" refers to Bill.

More bashing from 7HL. You really are at loose ends, aren't you?