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  1. #5181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    USDA has no say in the organization or operation of any U.S. breed registry.

    There is nowhere in the U.S. that has a tax on foals, purebred or otherwise (unless it's part of a larger personal property tax system).

    An open stud book is not an "anything goes" book. It just means that the breed will accept a horse that meets certain standards.

    Pedigree is, indeed, an important tool in making breeding selections. Loss of the TWHBEA registry data would be a Bad Thing. Since that loss is unlikely (even if TWHBEA folds) it might be less a "real world issue" than it seems.

    G.
    At the current time the USDA has little to do with any breed organization. They do not determine bylaws nor rules as to what is purity etc.

    That said..with the "new climate" emerging we might find ourselves coming under government laws. I.E. in Germany a bred purebred bitch can ONLY have 6 offspring from a litter registered. Period.

    Many groups such as HSUS, PETA and many members on this forum have advocated a tax on all registered horses (as we know the purebred breeder produces too many culls to get one good one) SARCASM folks...

    One suggestion was to tax every breeding mare stallion and resulting foal.

    Of course these are not laws YET..but it is prudent for registration groups to provide a data base. Just in Case

    An open stud book does not guaranty the demise of a breed..just look at the Appaloosa..TB, AH and at one time Arab. But now..the breed for halter does not need color, stripped hooves nor sclera around the eye..the breed may collapse within two more decades..why bother..The Curly Horse registration body have an open book with curly coat and little mane or tail as absolutes for includsion

    The TWH has an amazing gait HOWEVER even on this board, what one thinks is a wonderful head bob and gait on a plantation type horse..another poster will say it is all wrong. Further comments has been posted about the pedigree and value of certain horses. If one does not have an ethical group who track the pedigrees how is one to know who they are breeding to genetically..??

    Just thoughts

    The Preacher has VALID points.. don't complain about the government if you do not vote and the same applies for service clubs.



  2. #5182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Further comments has been posted about the pedigree and value of certain horses. If one does not have an ethical group who track the pedigrees how is one to know who they are breeding to genetically..??
    First just a couple things you may not know Fairfax. Up until 1989 TWH's were not required to be blood typed and there were many, many MANY horses who's papers are suspect. It was very simple to get a good set of papers and put them on any horse that matched the markings, if there were any. In 2007 they began requiring DNA testing but even that can only go back to 1989 and the blood typing results. So just for instance I had some off the wall bred mare with a white right foot, all I needed to do was shop the market for a nice set of Ebony Masterpiece papers and viola', I've got a much better "bred" mare. And that will follow all her foals for the rest of their lives.......no one will ever be the wiser that the original mare was NOT an Ebony Masterpiece mare.

    So in all actuality, it sorta makes the pedigrees worthless unless you are basing you opinions on only the horses born after 1989 and to be totally honest, I know several folks who still did the paper swapping up into 2005. The DNA testing is going to be the only real reliable way of knowing what you have and what you may want to breed to.

    So saying TWHBEA and ethical in the same breath is .............well, the two just don't mix very well. Just some food for thought for those who are clinging to the registry as if it's a golden icon.


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  3. #5183
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    remember when they tried to use Shelterwood labs for DNA and bags full of samples were found mouldering in a gutter somewhere? High quality vendors



  4. #5184
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    Thank you for the information



  5. #5185
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    Same stuff happened with saddlebreds - seen it myself, too. It happens with other breeds as well. Which is why this "open book" tracking registry has meaning to some and no meaning to others.

    But for me, it is not just the blood lines - it is who owned and trained and developed the good horse or the not so good horse. It is as much a human history as it is a horse history. It is a record of blood, sweat and tears.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  6. #5186
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    It's a set of papers, not a diary?

    And I cannot be the only one who has bought an 8 year old that hasn't been transferred since he was 2. Very few horses I've bought were 'in' the name of the person I bought them from. Just a set of papers and the signed transfer from maybe the breeder, or an owner several owner's back.

    Maybe I'm not romantic enough to moon over a set of papers.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #5187
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    It's a set of papers, not a diary?

    And I cannot be the only one who has bought an 8 year old that hasn't been transferred since he was 2. Very few horses I've bought were 'in' the name of the person I bought them from. Just a set of papers and the signed transfer from maybe the breeder, or an owner several owner's back.

    Maybe I'm not romantic enough to moon over a set of papers.
    My 22yo has never been transferred out of his first owner's name. My 10yo is still registered to the last person that showed her despite being sold three times after her show career that I know of. Come to think of it...none of my Walkers ever came to me with current registration. Guess I'm not of the mooning type either.


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  8. #5188
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    It's a set of papers, not a diary?

    And I cannot be the only one who has bought an 8 year old that hasn't been transferred since he was 2. Very few horses I've bought were 'in' the name of the person I bought them from. Just a set of papers and the signed transfer from maybe the breeder, or an owner several owner's back.

    Maybe I'm not romantic enough to moon over a set of papers.
    Lots of people share your views. But there are other views to consider.

    Papers have multiple uses. The least of them is for "bragging rights." The highest is selection of brood stock. Part of that process is tracking of production so that a breeder can get a "long view" of their program. I'd prefer people who buy from me actually register their animals so I can know how well I did in the breeding barn. But there's no way I can force that so I'll just have to do without.

    Papers are not definitive proof of ownership, but can be very helpful if there is ever a question.

    If a person is a supporter of their breed association then registration is important because it is a major income source for the association.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #5189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Lots of people share your views. But there are other views to consider.

    Papers have multiple uses. The least of them is for "bragging rights." The highest is selection of brood stock. Part of that process is tracking of production so that a breeder can get a "long view" of their program. I'd prefer people who buy from me actually register their animals so I can know how well I did in the breeding barn. But there's no way I can force that so I'll just have to do without.

    Papers are not definitive proof of ownership, but can be very helpful if there is ever a question.

    If a person is a supporter of their breed association then registration is important because it is a major income source for the association.

    G.
    But how does a set of papers tell me who trained the horse, his blood sweat and tears history? I mean really. That's where I got a bit eye-rolly.



    Look, I fully appreciate what papers are. Anytime someone says modern bred horses are crap I point them to my grandson of The Pusher and Coins Hard Cash and tell them to try that line again. I get it, you bet.

    But I also understand what they are not.


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  10. #5190
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    But how does a set of papers tell me who trained the horse, his blood sweat and tears history? I mean really. That's where I got a bit eye-rolly.



    Look, I fully appreciate what papers are. Anytime someone says modern bred horses are crap I point them to my grandson of The Pusher and Coins Hard Cash and tell them to try that line again. I get it, you bet.

    But I also understand what they are not.
    Papers tell you about a horse's ancestry; they say nothing about current status or past treatment.

    Certain traits in horses are highly heritable. If you know which horses pass which characteristics you can buy and sell horses on blood lines alone. I know folks who do this in multiple breeds. But they are genuine experts who bet their own money on their expertise. And they are not all that common.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  11. #5191
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    Just another tidbit of information FYI. If TWHBEA doesn't survive, the pedigrees won't be lost. They belong to the horse's owner as proved by the TWHBEA vs NWHA lawsuit. That was the most significant decision that was rendered. No organization owns a pedigree and reg numbers are incidental.


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  12. #5192
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    Roy weighs in.

    http://chattanoogan.com/2013/6/21/25...Desperate.aspx

    Roy Exum: The ‘Lickers’ Are Desperate
    Friday, June 21, 2013 - by Roy Exum

    The Performance Show Horse Association (PSHA), desperately trying to cling to the now-seedy image that has resulted in a half-century of abuse to Tennessee Walking Horses, accused U.S. Congressman Ed Whitfield (R-KY) of “misleading and inaccurate testimony” on Thursday when, in fact, the Shelbyville-based organization is today considered a haven of false propaganda.

    PSHA is the latest acronym of a club that those responsible for the Walking Horse Celebration has just launched to hide the tarnished reputations of other groups that revere the “Big Lick,” an unnatural gait that many believe can only be achieved by torturing and soring the magnificent animals. Whitfield had sponsored an amendment to the Farm Bill that would have instead helped cripple those who apply caustic chemicals and agents to the horse’s forelegs so they’ll pick their painful legs up higher.

    The Farm Bill was defeated for the second straight year in Congress yesterday, 234-to-195, and while it is unknown what Congress will do next, there is no doubt the horse welfare advocates will swat away any attempts by the PSHA to sell itself as a legitimate entity after years on consistent and rampant horse abuse in what is laughingly now called the “performance” animal.

    In a poorly-advised press release, PSHA charged that “Whitfield failed to tell his former members of Congress that:

    CLAIM: “The amendment eliminates a total division of the equine breed, impacting more than 10,000 horses that would be deemed no longer fit for their intended purpose.”

    FACT: Horse shows wouldn’t skip a beat. “Dirty Lickers” might lose their jobs but if a massive effort to remove the cheaters from the game is successful, it only stands to reason that more people would show because the playing field is level. Believe this, the cheaters are well-known.

    CLAIM: “Take from hard-working taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars in investments and income without cause or any scientific evidence”

    FACT: In just the last year, five men have pleaded guilty to federal charges stemming from horse abuse and two trainers – convicted Jackie McConnell and just-caught Larry Wheelon – still face state charges. If Wheelon is found guilty on all 19 horses that were “scientifically” found to be abused, he could technically die in jail. We have more “cause” than the war in Iraq!

    CLAIM: “Eliminate … self-regulation … which is far superior to federal government.”

    FACT: Over half of the top horse show judges in the group SHOW have past violations of the Horse Protection Act and a recent check of the Trainer’s Association showed its members were rife with violations. (Wheelon headed its ethic committee) Trainers president Mickey McCormick has over a dozen suspensions – all by the US Dept. of Agriculture. “Self-regulation” in Shelbyville would outlaw mirrors.

    CLAIM: “Eliminate … self regulation (in order to make the federal agency bigger).”

    FACT: If mankind is ever going to do away with the “Dirty Lickers,” honest USDA veterinarians and inspectors are the only answer. How many USDA inspectors to you see at a dog show or county fair? The sleazy side of the Walking Horse industry has smeared the reputation of 95 percent of owners who are clean, sound and honest. Horse abuse for cheap ribbons must stop. America has clearly had enough.

    CLAIM: “Creates a Federal bureaucracy at a huge cost to taxpayers ….”

    FACT: You want to see a bureaucracy? Go to Shelbyville, TN and just follow the money. The Breeder’s Association just fired its president, allegedly so his boss could win a ribbon. The same Breeder’s Association is floundering in a stinking sea of public perception and there is, in fact, “so much smoke that anyone can tell the Dirty Lick is ablaze in troubles.” The National Celebration has turned into a fiasco with heavy financial losses.

    Yet the press release from PSHA claims the Whitfield Amendment, if it stays on the next effort to get the Farm Bill through Congress, will ruin the walking horse industry. If ever there was a press release written by Pinocchio, Thursday’s missive from the so-called PSHA was surely it.

    royexum@aol.com
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.


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  13. #5193
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    In the interests of honesty if the Big Lick is outlawed it WILL result in the loss of jobs; the gross devaluation of hundreds, if not thousands of horses; and significant economic injury to some areas of Middle TN (and probably some other places, too). All this is a normal and natural consequence of the decisions that have been made during the long life of the Big Lick process.

    Are these costs acceptable in the Great Scheme of Things? Some say "yes" and some say "no."

    It's time for the Big Lick to end. And those who created and benefited from it will likely suffer serious injury. There will also be "collateral damage." That's just how life happens.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #5194
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    On the other hand G., couldn't it NOT result in the loss of jobs? No one is asking these trainers, assistants, groomers, etc. to stop showing horses. Just telling them to stop SORING horses. If my restaurant only serves hamburger and hamburger is outlawed, I can either close shop or start selling pork sandwiches. There is an either/or........Shelbyville just doesn't want to play by the rules/HPA.

    The devaluation of hundreds/thousands of horses......similar scenario. Those horses values have been inflated based on big lick standards. Prices for BL horses have been based on an assumption that BL was here to stay and that BL was the "chosen" category to show in. If BL is outlawed many of these horses may find a home in one of the flatshod categories, endurance classes, dressage classes, etc. There is still and either/or situation......and people still pay good money for a good trail riding horse.

    Middle TN has been feeling and economic impact from SOUND horse folks staying OUT of Shelbyville for the past several years. The impact has been increasing every year since about 2001. Personally, I know many people who would return to the Celebration (myself included) if it was a SOUND Celebration. They can rebuild this thing, they just have to think outside the box.

    The only reason the baby may be thrown out with the bath water is if Middle TN CHOOSES to do so. No one is asking them to do that, we're merely asking them for clean fresh water.


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  15. #5195
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleanUpTN View Post
    On the other hand G., couldn't it NOT result in the loss of jobs? No one is asking these trainers, assistants, groomers, etc. to stop showing horses. Just telling them to stop SORING horses. If my restaurant only serves hamburger and hamburger is outlawed, I can either close shop or start selling pork sandwiches. There is an either/or........Shelbyville just doesn't want to play by the rules/HPA.

    Clearly the Basin crowd does not want to play by any rules but their own. Even assuming that you're correct and these people would find other venues to present their horses there will be a period of transition. I'm not sure, however, that they will. The hard truth is that there WILL be a negative, economic impact at least in the short term. To deny it is to be disingenuous.

    The devaluation of hundreds/thousands of horses......similar scenario. Those horses values have been inflated based on big lick standards. Prices for BL horses have been based on an assumption that BL was here to stay and that BL was the "chosen" category to show in. If BL is outlawed many of these horses may find a home in one of the flatshod categories, endurance classes, dressage classes, etc. There is still and either/or situation......and people still pay good money for a good trail riding horse.

    IMO there is no argument, here. The BL brood stock pace like camels unless altered by the BL process. They lack the genetic background to correctly move as Walking Horses. While they might not end up as meat they are pretty worthless as anything but Big Lick horses. Their poor quality movement makes them highly suspect as "trail horses." The decline in value will be precipitous and steep.

    Middle TN has been feeling and economic impact from SOUND horse folks staying OUT of Shelbyville for the past several years. The impact has been increasing every year since about 2001. Personally, I know many people who would return to the Celebration (myself included) if it was a SOUND Celebration. They can rebuild this thing, they just have to think outside the box.

    Maybe so and maybe not. While some might return there are many, including the undersigned, who left the breed years ago and have little inclination to return. Further, unless there is a major upgrade in genetic quality I don't see the "sound horse" generating the crowd appeal that the BL has always elicited. You and I might decry the taste of The Mob but it was the BL horse that put bums in seats.


    The only reason the baby may be thrown out with the bath water is if Middle TN CHOOSES to do so. No one is asking them to do that, we're merely asking them for clean fresh water.
    Clean, fresh water is good...unless you happen to algae or pond scum. Then, you die.

    I'm still all for the elimination of the BL process. But to deny the consequences of that elimination is not being truthful.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  16. #5196
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    The Big Lick performance horses number in the thousands?? I thought they were just a very small percentage of TWH that show.



  17. #5197
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleanUpTN View Post
    On the other hand G., couldn't it NOT result in the loss of jobs? No one is asking these trainers, assistants, groomers, etc. to stop showing horses. Just telling them to stop SORING horses. If my restaurant only serves hamburger and hamburger is outlawed, I can either close shop or start selling pork sandwiches. There is an either/or........Shelbyville just doesn't want to play by the rules/HPA.

    The devaluation of hundreds/thousands of horses......similar scenario. Those horses values have been inflated based on big lick standards. Prices for BL horses have been based on an assumption that BL was here to stay and that BL was the "chosen" category to show in. If BL is outlawed many of these horses may find a home in one of the flatshod categories, endurance classes, dressage classes, etc. There is still and either/or situation......and people still pay good money for a good trail riding horse.

    Middle TN has been feeling and economic impact from SOUND horse folks staying OUT of Shelbyville for the past several years. The impact has been increasing every year since about 2001. Personally, I know many people who would return to the Celebration (myself included) if it was a SOUND Celebration. They can rebuild this thing, they just have to think outside the box.

    The only reason the baby may be thrown out with the bath water is if Middle TN CHOOSES to do so. No one is asking them to do that, we're merely asking them for clean fresh water.
    The BL has been going on for so long now we have 2, maybe even 3 generations training and breeding for the BL, which is nothing like training and breeding for natural running-walk trail horses. I suspect a lot of these people don't even know what a running walk is supposed to look like (most of the BL horses are step pacing). It would be a huge re-education on their part, and a lot of lost time and money as they get rid of their BL stock and started buying natural gaited horses to breed and learn how to train. The BL is all these people know and for some people it's too hard to switch careers at this point in life.

    I'm not justifying their refusal to change, I just think it's more about blue ribbons, they're risking losing the only job they know how to do.


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  18. #5198
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    Not ALL modern "BL" bred horses are pacey trash. I'm getting pretty sore about that argument

    SOME are. but "THEY" aren't. I've ridden too many - I know better


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  19. #5199
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    Do ya think if TWHBeA moved in to this century and changed to electronic voting for members things would be better for the TWH.Trail and pleasure twh out # BIG LICK,performance.

    a movement in this avenue,maybe be just what is needed. TN law just changed its legal to have this type of voting.


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  20. #5200
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Not ALL modern "BL" bred horses are pacey trash. I'm getting pretty sore about that argument

    SOME are. but "THEY" aren't. I've ridden too many - I know better
    Perhaps there are a few that escape the poor breeding, but damn few. The hard truth is that if you outlaw the milieu that gives these horses value then the value will likely drop. IMO it will fall like a stone.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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